Author Topic: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.  (Read 250056 times)

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fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #264 on: April 19, 2012, 01:45:48 PM »
The watts up is a good unit, not extremely accurate but fine for most of us, you won't need any shunts. ;D
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

birdhouse

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #265 on: April 19, 2012, 02:19:32 PM »
honestly, i'm not real keen on the doc wattson without an external shunt (which can be modded to have an external shunt).  something about having big boy wires all a sudden truncated down to a #10???  for metering doesn't sit well with me. 

this may not be the case with you, maybe your largest wire is a #10 then go for it.  the doc wattson is a good meter.  basically, run the largest wire you can afford down the tower to eliminate voltage drop. 

for me it's #6 down the tower, then an average of #5/4 for ~100 foot to the battery bank.  voltage drop is real, and can rob a LOT of power if thin wires are used.  just visit a voltage drop calculator on the web to see for yourself!

so yea, i've yet to do metering for my mill, but there's no way i'm gonna buy a stock doc wattson and connect my #4 to a #10 and feel good about it!

adam

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #266 on: April 19, 2012, 04:05:19 PM »
Yeah well, I have an external shunt on my doc watson, but that's on a turbine that occasionally sees 80+ amps for a couple seconds, he's not gonna have to worry about that, his main worry will be making enough power to light up the doc watson. ;D
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11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #267 on: April 19, 2012, 04:38:40 PM »
Ummmm, What's a "DOC WATTSON"????   :-\
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Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #268 on: April 19, 2012, 04:39:39 PM »
I have the Watt's UP, have had it for couple years now it is good for what it is.
I took a good look at this $12 unit I may even buy one of those  :).
I would say get the less of the two, but realize you'll NOT be able to get totals data.
For that PMA and the fact that you're going to be putting up data here and for the builder, I'd say the better cost would be that one.
HOWEVER there is a unit around this handles higher current, can't just seem to find it goes up to 100A I think.
I have had my Watt's UP meter hooked up to 48Vdc pulling 12A on an e-scooter and it didn't even get warm.

Hope that helps;
Bruce S
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #269 on: April 19, 2012, 04:58:22 PM »
The Doc Wattson is an excellent meter and will show you amp-hours and kWh that your turbine generates, as well as storing the peak output for review:
http://www.powerwerx.com/digital-meters/doc-wattson-meter-dc-inline.html

Even with my Classic controllers, which do lots more exotic data logging than the Doc, I still use them all over on my system with external shunts to log power from multiple controllers, and power usage of my inverters with twin 500 amp shunts on them.  They tend to be a bit optimistic on the top end by maybe 5% or so.  But under about 40 amps they're pretty accurate, +/- 1% in my experience.

On your application you will not need an external shunt.
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #270 on: April 19, 2012, 05:13:41 PM »
I am seriously leaning towards the watts up over the Doc...
Only because the watts up LIGHTS UP, the doc does not look like it lights up in the pictures.
Does it?
Add in the $60 after postage as my cost and it makes me interested in the one below too.

That amazing low cost make me want to ask you guys if you think this one is worth consiteration..?

Volt Meter/DC Digital LED Amp Volt Meter + Shunt /200V 200A /Blue
Price: $11.49  at Amazon
link:
http://www.amazon.com/Volt-Meter-Digital-Shunt-200V/dp/B005HBBZEM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1334856945&sr=8-7

Heck, for only $12 bucks, I might buy them both to see how they run against each other...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 05:19:49 PM by Steadfast »
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #271 on: April 19, 2012, 05:19:50 PM »
I would say you will get what you pay for.  If you want to know how much energy your turbine produces (amp-hours and kWh), then you will need the Doc.  That cheap meter only shows volts and amps - it does not do any data logging.
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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #272 on: April 19, 2012, 05:34:12 PM »
It's no problem seeing the doc even in low light conditions, the doc is the only way to go.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #273 on: April 19, 2012, 05:54:59 PM »
Heck, for only $12 bucks, I might buy them both to see how they run against each other...

If you want to spend money on two meters I would get a good quality Class 1.5 analog ammeter and a shunt.  The analog meter can always be counted on to be accurate.  The cheap digital meters have no end user calibration possible and they do not react as fast as analog to show current surges and/or dips under heavy load.  You will see that when you connect two meters to a load like an inverter - an analog and a digital - that the analog will show every change in power while the digital tends to average wildly varying current requirements to the load.

I have both Class 1.5 analog and Doc Wattsons on the inputs to my inverters, both running off the same shunt.  Under heavy load where the inverters will pull 700-750 amps during surge to start a big motor or something, the analog meters accurately show the surge power to the inverters while the Doc is not fast enough to measure it.
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« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 06:11:40 PM by ChrisOlson »

tanner0441

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #274 on: April 19, 2012, 07:02:49 PM »
Hi

I will second Chris's comments on analog meters. I have an analog volt meter on my turbine before the controller, because I have to rectify it to read the AC across 2 of the phases and damp it with a capacitor to stop it ringing. You can see what is going on in real time as the needle swings with the voltage changes, with a digital it looks like a fruit machine as the numbers change and depending on the sampling period can be up to half a second late.

The Watts up, though I have no personal experience, has a good following on this site and the only criticism I have heard is the fact it needs powering from a separate supply.  The amp volt meter you show I think will need two of them because of the way you measure amps and volts, amps in series with the load and volts across the supply, and you will have to take readings and do the sums on paper, and it will not store limits.

I mentioned earlier have a go at the PMA supplier, offer to let him use your setup as a proving ground and supply you a decent data logger in return for discount on the PMA.

Brian

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #275 on: April 19, 2012, 09:53:39 PM »
I'd also like to point out that the Watt's Up does not have a lighted display.  That's marketing trickery or something when they take the picture of it.  The Watt's Up and Doc Wattson are pretty much the same meter except the Doc Wattson stores data up to 650 kWh and increments every 10 watt-hours, where the Watt's Up only stores up to 6.5 kWh and increments every 1/10th of a watt-hour.

The reason most of us use the Doc Wattson instead of Watt's Up is because, my system for instance, would exceed the energy logging capability of a Watt's Up about once every 2 hours.  Plus I don't know for sure if an external shunt can be used on a Watt's Up.

I read something earlier in this thread about elliptical magnets and the guy with the Red Delco's is "working the bugs out"?  What do elliptical magnets do?  Do they make more low wind power?  Or what?

You see, this is what I don't understand:
but that he is up to something new and different now with his product line that Hugh Piggot recognises as ligitimate innovation.

I know Hugh pretty good.  I think I better email him and find out Watt's Up because I know for a fact that Hugh finds NOTHING "legitimately innovative" about elliptical magneted Red Delco's.  Hugh is an Old School turbine builder and it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks when the dog already knows 'em all.  Every once in awhile I wake up from a nightmare that gives me a vision of something that might blow up, rush out to the shop and build it before I forget how it's supposed to work, and Hugh will post it on his blog:
http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2011/12/chain-driven-turbine-with-classic-controller/

But I haven't seen much on Red Delco's with elliptical magnets on there.
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« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 10:07:35 PM by ChrisOlson »

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #276 on: April 19, 2012, 10:13:39 PM »
Steadfast at risk of being ejected by a superhero superman, I am posting another link for getting a wattmeter for cheaper.

 I got one from Hobbyking  for $18.99--took a little bit of time to arrive. I cannot comment on the function as I have shelved my project for the time being. They have wattmeters with backlight also. Better still you can go to your nearest RC hobby store and get one and try it out--they usually retail at twice the online price. The wires are 10awg and I dont think 6inches of that wire will cause a great impact on total resistance and voltage drop. I saw a similar rebranded wattmeter on windynation website.

Here's the link http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/index.rc
Search for wattmeter

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #277 on: April 19, 2012, 10:19:54 PM »
 Chris, I have no idea....

He said something highly technical about the elliptical shape creating some sort of electrical cascading wave or vortex or something like that. Which neither the round magnets nor the rectangular magnets cannot quite achieve but come close to achieving... I don't understand it at all but he believes in it enough to drop the cash to have that shape custom made. And he said he is loosing a lot of money for the price I paid but that if it works like he thinks it will all be worth it.
Most of the time I can sort of fallow what you guys are saying here
But tony at hurricane was talking a whole new level of "huh?" for me.

Ignorance sucks when you are as smart as I am.
But then I can usually fix that by asking lots of questions and reading.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 11:01:17 PM by Steadfast »
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ghurd

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #278 on: April 19, 2012, 10:24:59 PM »

I read something earlier in this thread about elliptical magnets and the guy with the Red Delco's is "working the bugs out"?  What do elliptical magnets do?  Do they make more low wind power?  Or what?


They do all kinds of obvious things, that I myself know of.
Seems like "Tony over at hurricane" missed the obvious.

"He also said that because of the challenge set before him by this string..."?

Not sure why "Tony over at hurricane" needs to do a radical redesign of his existing product to attempt to get it functioning up to what it is already supposed to do.
He has been selling them with a claim to what they WILL do, but it looks like he knows they will not do it?
Maybe that's just me.

"He said something highly technical about the elliptical shape creating some sort of electrical cascading wave or vortex or something like that."
Now its getting uncomfortably close to OU BS.
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #279 on: April 19, 2012, 10:29:37 PM »
Perhaps but then why would he spend the extra money for the new shaped magnets?
Perhaps he is on to something....maybe he had a eurica moment.... it does still happen you know.

One thing I do know... he voice gets very animated and excited when he talks about it...

I don't think that he can post any results for something not finished yet.
but there was a "positive reference" link on highs site that lead me to hurricane.
That is how I found them..
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 10:50:30 PM by Steadfast »
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #280 on: April 19, 2012, 10:45:32 PM »
Ok... I am sold... I will go out and buy "The Doc"...   thanks guys....
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #281 on: April 19, 2012, 11:10:26 PM »
He said something highly technical about the elliptical shape creating some sort of electrical cascading wave or vortex or something like that. Which neither the round magnets nor the rectangular magnets cannot quite achieve but come close to achieving...

Ahhhh.....  alternative method of charging the ol' Flux Capacitor when you can't get plutonium from the Iranian Terrorists.......



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« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 11:36:44 PM by ChrisOlson »

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #282 on: April 20, 2012, 06:00:19 AM »
COOL...I've always wanted one of those!
Does it come with a Delorian?
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #283 on: April 20, 2012, 08:38:17 AM »
Do I need the $3.50 "Auxiliary Power Connector Cable" to go with my Doc Wattson?
Auxiliary Power Connector Cable makes it easy to connect the Watt's Up or Doc Wattson meters to an optional power source like a battery pack, power supply, etc.


I will be useing a 3 phase to dc converter...

So with that in mind,
Whats the wireing diagram on this thing?
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tanner0441

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #284 on: April 20, 2012, 12:11:25 PM »
Hi

Hey Chris seeing that pic, how much extra power could he get with one of those octopus looking mercury vapour rectifiers? They come in a metal case and the surplus energy will keep the shop warm....

Brian.

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #285 on: April 20, 2012, 03:39:54 PM »
Do I need the $3.50 "Auxiliary Power Connector Cable" to go with my Doc Wattson?
Auxiliary Power Connector Cable makes it easy to connect the Watt's Up or Doc Wattson meters to an optional power source like a battery pack, power supply, etc.


I will be useing a 3 phase to dc converter...

So with that in mind,
Whats the wireing diagram on this thing?

The red wire on the left end load side gets capped, the black wire on that end goes to your negative buss or battery terminal.
On the source side the black wire goes to the negative side of your rectifier, the red wire goes to your positive buss or positive battery terminal, you can put a switch in this red wire to shut the unit off which zeros out all readings, you don't need the aux cable option.
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #286 on: April 20, 2012, 09:04:23 PM »
Hey Chris seeing that pic, how much extra power could he get with one of those octopus looking mercury vapour rectifiers? They come in a metal case and the surplus energy will keep the shop warm....

I don't know.  But one of them mercury arc rectifiers would even be cooler than a Flux Capacitor   ;D
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #287 on: April 23, 2012, 01:18:38 PM »
3 steps forward, 2 steps BACK!!!

Well, there are no excellent photos to post on Saturday
because I was way too busy trouble shooting MASSIVE structural tower failures.
These were all GOOD events because they happened now before my turbine was flying.

On Friday I got my hands on a 5 foot long 1 inch thick steel, Mobile home auger/anchor with a 5000 pound pull rating. Like these but MUCH more beefy:


I sunk it fully into the ground and then my father in law and I arch welded 2 large "L" brackets that formed a hollow “I” beam which was such a tight fit that we had to sledge hammer the exposed ring of the auger inside of it. Then we bolted around and trough the ring to lock them together.
Here is a photo:


Looks good right?
WELL….

When we lowered the tower with it, as the tower became more horizontal it bent the 1 inch thick anchor 20 degrees inside the ground but it stayed firmly unmoved and solidly anchored...
( I will post a picture soon)

At the same time we lowered the tower we heard a LOUD crack!!!

I told you guys that for the Tower Foundation we poured a slightly hour glass shaped, 320 pound concrete slab using a plastic bucket with the bottom knocked out of it, to form the nice round top…


Well, as the tower top was only 5 feet from the ground, THE FOUNDATION BROKE, right in the middle, and the bucket part of the foundation separated and began rolling freely, making the steel hinge useless!

Aaaaah NUTS!   >:(
At least I was holding the top of the tower when it failed and was able to let the tower down the rest of the way…

To stop me from throwing a fit, I continued to attach the cables and all the parts as if nothing happened.

Once all those changes where complete, I had calmed down enough to think through the problem.

Sunday was forecast to be a rain monsoon, so we had to move quick if we were going to fix the foundation.

First we picked up the now seperated “bucket” part of the foundation and cut off the plastic bucket that was buried inside the rest of the foundation.  Then we smashed off the concrete that WAS surrounding the base of the bucket. We also chipped at the outside of the smooth concrete "bucket form" so that the new concrete foundation could fuse to it when we poured more. I then when dug 2 feet out from the old smaller foundation a few inches under the outside bottom edge of it.

Because the Bucket base was originally sticking a foot above the ground, we took my chicken's hard plastic Kiddy pool and cut a 2.5ft hole out of the middle of the bottom of it and sliced it out to the edge. I then turned the kiddy pool upside down and rolled it inside of itself to fit the outside edge of the 4.5ft wide hole, making a 12 inch high plastic wall above the hole. We then packed dirt around the kiddy pool to hold it in place.

We then went to Lowes and purchased 1000 pounds of dry “Quickcrete” concrete. I then hand mixed all 12, eighty pound bags, one bag at a time, and dragged each in my wagon 1000 feet and poured each into the top the pool and into the new foundation hole below it. I filled it up until there was a concrete pooling and seeping out the top of the kiddy pool!  I then covered it all with a tarp to keep it from getting rained on. This 1320 pound foundation is NOT going to MOVE ever again!  >:(
(picture coming soon)

As for the fix on the winch stand:
I plan to place my anvil next to the base of the stand and sledge hammer it straight again.
Then I will go out and buy a 3 ft long 4 inch wide steel “I” beam. I will burry and concrete the beam 2.5 feet next to the anchor and concrete it in place. Then I will bolt/weld it to the existing winch beam.

That should keep it from bending with the weight when the tower gets 20 degrees from horizontal.

Bottom-line so far:
My tower is now sadly laying sideways with all the cables hanging from it awaiting the new massive concrete base to set, and for the winch stand reinforcement project to be completed. 

At least it happened now and not later…  ;)

But Hey, I did get the cables attached… 8)

Like I said, 3 steps forward, 2 steps back…
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 03:36:27 PM by Steadfast »
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Mary B

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #288 on: April 23, 2012, 01:28:35 PM »
Quickcrete is not a structural concrete. On my tower bases I used 4,000PSI fiberglass reinforced concrete.

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #289 on: April 23, 2012, 01:44:36 PM »
Quickcrete needs a LOT of re rod if you want to try to do what you are doing, any concrete by itself in a structural situation is worthless.
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birdhouse

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #290 on: April 23, 2012, 02:23:21 PM »
Quote
This 1320 pound foundation is NOT going to MOVE ever again! 

hopefully that is true!  like others said, quickcrete is a good product, especially if you add just enough water (no soup) and use lots of re-bar!  on it's own, with a soupy mix, it's rather weak!  i'd wait atleast three weeks before putting any forces on the new footing.  technically, you're supposed to wait a month. 

your best bet for repair would have been to drill 1/2" holes in the existing portion of the footing that hadn't cracked, pounded 1/2" rebar into the holes, then poured around the "pegs" to tie both portions together. 

1320lbs isn't really all that much concrete for a structural tower base.  my tower has 3000lbs of concrete for the base, granted it's taller. 

adam

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #291 on: April 23, 2012, 03:11:47 PM »
Quote
Because the Bucket base was originally sticking a foot above the ground, we took my chicken's hard plastic Kitty pool and cut a 2.5ft hole out of the middle of the bottom of it and sliced it out to the edge. I then turned the kiddy pool upside down and rolled it inside of itself to fit the outside edge of the 4.5ft wide hole, making a 12 inch high plastic wall above the hole. We then packed dirt around the kiddy pool to hold it in place.

We then went to Lowes and purchased 1000 pounds of dry “Quickcrete” concrete. I then hand mixed all 12, eighty pound bags, one bag at a time, and dragged each in my wagon 1000 feet and poured each into the top the pool and into the new foundation hole below it. I filled it up until there was a concrete pooling and seeping out the top of the kiddy pool!


Your kids hate you now.
 :(  :(

Why did you sacrifice that, when you were going to Lowe's anyway?

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #292 on: April 23, 2012, 03:27:53 PM »
Nah... My daughter is 16 and too hip for a kiddy pool.

It was one of these cheap kiddy pools I bought to cool off the chickens that they never used.
like this picture I found on the internet:


It began to "Sprinkle" and I had to adapt quick...
"Where can I find a round plastic wall into which I can pour concrete to also set above ground???? hmmmm....
....Oooooh Snap...  ;D
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 03:34:11 PM by Steadfast »
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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #293 on: April 23, 2012, 03:34:43 PM »
Well, hopefully if you are gonna use guys now you'll be ok, a guyed tower doesn't need much of a base, just something to pin it to the ground for raising and lowering, pretty much all concrete has a 28 day cure, if it has set enough and it's raining outside go out and uncover it, if you keep it wet for the first few days it'll cure harder.
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #294 on: April 23, 2012, 03:43:28 PM »
Well, hopefully if you are gonna use guys now you'll be ok, a guyed tower doesn't need much of a base, just something to pin it to the ground for raising and lowering, pretty much all concrete has a 28 day cure, if it has set enough and it's raining outside go out and uncover it, if you keep it wet for the first few days it'll cure harder.

Really... I did not know that....Thanks
Will do! I have to uncover it anyway to take the pictures.

I did not take pictures because it was already dark before we finished pouring the last 3 bags.
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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #295 on: April 23, 2012, 04:20:02 PM »
Hi

If you read back through earlier posts over the years you will see quite a few posts on concrete bases and without exception the have a re-bar framework before the concrete is poured. They also go quite deep into the ground.  Concrete unreinforced has good compressive strength, but has very little tensional or torsional strength. If your bolts that go into the concrete do not go all the way through, the concrete below the bolts is doing little.  As the mast comes down the stresses on the bolts becomes shearing forces.

The problems you just experienced are with just the mast, add the weight of the turbine and blades and as it reaches horizontal, the point where the gin pole attaches becomes a fulcrum, depending how much of the mast is above the fulcrum then you could finish up with the bolts in the concrete under tension. If it was my set up I would like to see a couple of those ground aurgers you have with a thread on the top two or three inches sticking up through the concrete to bolt the mast base to.

I don't know the pre-mix your using but we have something similar here in the UK and if I wanted it to have any strength I used to make sure it was well mixed and pack it into the ground dry then let it absorb the water from the ground. It was a bit slower but a lot stronger.

Brian.

jlt

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #296 on: April 23, 2012, 05:05:23 PM »
Are U using a gin pole? If not the forces on the base would very large, also a longer gin pole
would decrease the load.

                                            Jlt