The Truth About Small Wind Turbines

[Rob Beckers]

Chris, you're off-grid, and from what you're telling it sounds like you have a good wind resource there. That's a very different situation from what my article is about (and I state that right at the beginning). Wind is great for off-grid use, even if you don't have a lot of it: At the times  the sun doesn't shine it tends to be windy, while on the windy days there's usually not a lot of sun. The two complement each other very nicely.

Antero, I'm not sure where the antagonism comes from. Taking your turbine apart and putting it back together = rebuilding. Heck, you even know what type of bearing is in there. That is great! Power to you! All I'm saying is that the vast majority of small turbine owners won't be able to do that. They have to pay someone.

The installed price of a 2kW cheap-ass wind tubine here (a SkyStream) runs around $12,000, on a mostly useless 33' tower. That turbine has its set of issues, though it's not quite as bad as many others.

The installed price of a good 2.5kW turbine on a 100' tilt-up pipe tower (ARE110, now XZeres) would be around $20,000. Maybe more.

The installed price of our own 6kW Scirocco on a 100' tilt-up tower works out to around $45,000.

The installed price of a decent 8kW turbine (Bergey Excel-S) on an 80' self-support tower would likely work out around $55,000.

Those are realistic numbers for this part of the world. Some are cheaper; you can get a Chinese 10kW installed for probably half the money of that Bergey, but you'll be spending the difference on repairs in short order. There are lots of more exotic designs out there that are not much cheaper, but won't produce any meaningful amounts of energy.

The people my article targets are those going for grid-tie, which usually means they install something that is at least 2kW, often more in rated power. Barring do-it-yourself work, that's not going to be cheap and is quite the investment for almost everyone doing this.

In general though, if you find any errors in my article please point them out. I will be happy to correct them. Quoting your installed cost is not representative for the average turbine install over here though.

-Rob-

[Seekscore]

I think Rob's target audience isn't as smart about wind as folks on this board. This board is a hard sell because most seem to understand the truth. I guarantee the truth these folks have didn't come from manufactures!

I think that the vast majority of folks who think about wind, believe the marketing hype from the manufactures. I get brochures occasionally from a local R.E installation company pushing a popular wind turbine. They tell me that I could possibly get a check back from my power company because I'll generate more power than I need. Most members of this forum know this is a bunch of crap. Now consider your grandmother or neighbor who know nothing about wind except what they hear from manufactures. Going green makes you feel good, is going to save the planet and it will pay for itself in 7 years. After that, it will be free for the rest of your lives. That sounds pretty good to me...however, reality is something else...

Here is my truth...I don't "NEED" wind energy so my point is stated from this perspective. If I didn't have electricity available, my perspective would be different. Please keep that in mind before I get flamed...

I get my power at $.11 kWh and average around 700kWh a month. I've been logging data for a couple weeks and have the raw numbers that aren't manipulated as to convince someone to buy my product.

Yesterday was windy as all day. Way more than average. I had several 30 second average wind speeds above 40mph.

From the data I got, here is the truth.
24 hour Ave winds - 16.05 mph
24 hour energy - 9.502kWh generated.
Price per kWh x kWh generated - $1.05 saved yesterday. Woohoo!

If I averaged 16.05 mph for the entire month - 289.03 kWh = $31.79 (9.502kWh x 365 days) / 12 months x $0.11. Now I my savings is $31.79 for the month.

In one of Paul Gipe's books, he has an average price listed based on swept area for a turbine install. Using his low figure, it would put a 12' turbine at $13,133.86 for a complete commercial install. High end install is $26.793.07.

Using the low price for install and not figuring my tax payer subsidies to make it more attractive, it would take 31.07 years to pay for itself. That is, of course, if I don't have to replace anything for the next 31 years.

The high end price would take 63.39 years.

That truth is not so attractive. Wind power definitely has its place, but when manufactures try to lure folks to it with half truths and best case scenarios, it does more harm to the wind market than good. Imagine believing a manufacture and basing your investment on their hype. You plan on saving $100 a month so you decide to invest $15000 in an install. When the bills start coming in, you notice that your bill is $20 less than normal instead of $100. Guess what??...Most would say wind power sucks and is a rip off. If they knew the truth going in, then they get what they expect and have no disappointments.

Mike

[Antero]

Now we all know the truth about Rob Beckers writing.

My energy diary and dismantle pictures with explanation etc from 2kw 3,8m / 12,4ft windgenerator 575$;
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,145065.0.html

Antero

[Antero]

If you really can not use windpower..

Solar panel prices are going down too.
Here is a good site to find;

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

Antero

[fabricator]

Now we all know the truth about Rob Beckers writing.

My energy diary and dismantle pictures with explanation etc from 2kw 3,8m / 12,4ft windgenerator 575$;
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,145065.0.html

Antero

I don't know where in the world you are from but in North America what you posted there amounts to calling Rob a liar, was that your intention?

[ghurd]

I know of many entire households that operate from a single 75W solar panel.
That does not mean I would stand in front of a uneducated group of people and tell them it is remotely worth grid tying it, or that it will save 3% of their electric bill.
G-

[ChrisOlson]

Chris, you're off-grid, and from what you're telling it sounds like you have a good wind resource there. That's a very different situation from what my article is about (and I state that right at the beginning). Wind is great for off-grid use, even if you don't have a lot of it: At the times  the sun doesn't shine it tends to be windy, while on the windy days there's usually not a lot of sun. The two complement each other very nicely

Rob, the people who live on-grid can learn from what the off-grid folks do, because on-grid folks tend to waste a lot of power just because they can.  I know of on-grid folks who run a wind turbine and have a PC-based data logging system that runs 24/7 and uses more power than the wind turbine makes in a month.  For off-grid folks that power consumption of a PC running 24/7 will run the 'fridge, which is a hell of a lot more important to keep lit than the PC.

The truth about RE systems and grid-tie is that I know of few installations where it's ever going to pay off, whether it be wind or solar.  Some people want to have a wind turbine just to have one.

I'm not going to pretend that my wind turbines supply all my power.  Today I'm building a turbine and welding, and I have to run the generator to do that because that welder takes more power in one afternoon than my turbine makes in a week.  You posted your article to somewhat of a hard-sell crowd here because most of us already know the truth about wind turbines --- and we keep right on buildin' 'em because the more we build, the more power we got



--
Chris

[freejuice]

The truth in my case is, that, I get all my energy need, with windpower.
2kw dia 3,8m / 12,4ft windgenerator. Price 575$.
You can get 9-18m / 30-60ft tower complete with wires and all mounting materials under 500- 1000$.


The truth ?

Antero

what are the specifics on that tower?
 Where can you get a tower for that price, the scrap value on the steel alone is about worth that now

.

[SparWeb]

My own turbine's production, I estimated was about 45$ in the first year.  I don't mind telling people that.  You'd be surprised at how it really focuses their attention on the fact that I did NOT built mine to make money.

[ChrisOlson]

My own turbine's production, I estimated was about 45$ in the first year.  I don't mind telling people that.  You'd be surprised at how it really focuses their attention on the fact that I did NOT built mine to make money.

This is exactly the point here.  If anybody thinks they're going to put in a grid-tie solar or wind power system to save money or make money, forget it.  You can buy a lot of grid power for what the equipment is going to cost, without all the hassle.

I know a fellow who has a single 15 watt solar panel bolted to the side of his house on this little bracket as you walk out on the porch.  And he has that 15 watt solar panel grid-tied.  He spends a lot of his time logging the output of that 15 watt solar panel with PC-based logging software and all sorts of stuff.  To make it worthwhile, if you have grid power, you just want to have it because it's not cost effective or practical.  Some people want to put it in because they want to be independent.  Some people have a dream (I'd call it more like a nightmare) about going off-grid some day.

There's various reasons.  But if saving money is one of them, you're barking up the wrong tree.  I have not seen one single situation where someone with grid power could not save more money by learning how to conserve energy instead of putting in solar or wind power.

For those of us who live off-grid, there's many days when we don't have enough power to keep stuff lit and we generate power with a generator at about 60 cents a kWh.  If you think that's fun you haven't been there when you have to go out at 3:00 in the morning and start the generator to keep the furnace blower going overnight when it's 30 below outside.  For us, solar and wind power is a necessity and every kWh we generate costs easily double what on-grid folks pay for it off the grid.  But we live on about 10 kWh a day - me an my wife - and the "average" home takes 30.
--
Chris

[Rob Beckers]

You have a good point Chris: Us on-grid people in North America (me included) are addicted to cheap power. It's amazingly hard (and expensive) to produce your own electrical power (heat isn't much easier, unless you like chopping wood!). Most of the small wind systems going in are only there because of incentives, though I do know a few that put a grid-tie turbine in place on their own penny. Lots of folks that put up a Skyscream in the mistaken belief that they would pay for themselves and lower their electricity bills. My own 6.4kW of solar PV on the roof is only there because we get paid $0.80 per kWh on a 20-year contract. Until the cost of electricity goes up that won't change (meaning people's use).

On the bright side: A study came out last week that showed PV is now cost competitive for large installations with nuclear power, if you include the many subsidies and tax breaks the nuclear folks enjoy in the cost picture. Wer'e getting there, slowly but surely.

-Rob-

[ChrisOlson]

Most of the small wind systems going in are only there because of incentives,

I don't know how long those incentives will last.  The government is broke, they can't keep spending more than they got, and they can only keep printing money and making it more worthless until they run out of ink.  And I think the supply of ink is getting pretty low.
--
Chris

[coldspot]

OK, I'll Bite.
"if you find any errors in my article please point them out."
I read something about-
"none will run for 20 years without the need to replace at least some part(s)."
Hum, Maybe you should remember
The JACOBS down under.
 ( I'm not from Europe or the UK, 2 me down under means all roads go North)
NO solar panel would have produced like that turbine has or ever will.
"turbine which Admiral Byrd took on his expedition to Antarctica in 1933 and which was still in operable condition twenty two years later - even though the snow pack covered the tower to within several feet of the blades."
"The wind turbine Richard Byrd took to Antarctica was the 2.5 kW model."


$0.02

[ChrisOlson]

"none will run for 20 years without the need to replace at least some part(s)."
Hum, Maybe you should remember
The JACOBS down under.

Yeah, well.  That's a Jake.  There's no other machine like it.  Joe and Marcellus Jacobs pretty much set the standard by which every one has been measured against since.  But the venerable Jake is still not invincible.  I got a 23-10 that had a tower strike and blew all the blades off it and busted the governor up.  In the process it folded the snap ring over on the mainshaft that retains the ring gear in the gearbox and several other points of damage.
--
Chris

[Rob Beckers]

The old wooden blade Jacobs' needed those blades to be refinished every so many years (and leading-edge tape applied, though I'm not sure they had that in those days). Great turbines though! I've heard nothing but good about them.

-Rob-

[coldspot]

"nothing but good about them"
And you didn't write about them ?
"the standard"
Why I reminded.
The write up is a lot on the
"not going to work"
but, some times it is done the right way.


Again
just my
$0.02

[Rob Beckers]

coldspot, where's the "not going to work"? Heck no, quiet the opposite! I wrote that wind turbines can work as advertised, if you put them where the wind is, and that's not on a 30-foot tower.  What I am trying to do, is to give people realistic expectations when it comes to small wind turbines, based on real-world experience. Read the article my friend...

-Rob-

[jlt]

There is a sucker born every minute. that is the thinking of some of the wind turbine manufactures. I hope the certification of them will remove at lest some of them. and your article  will help to  the suckers from being.taken.   

[ChrisOlson]

What I am trying to do, is to give people realistic expectations when it comes to small wind turbines, based on real-world experience. Read the article my friend...

Rob, I think you're targeting a different "market", if you will, with your article than what you're going to run into on this forum.  A lot of people here are going to view the article as excessively negative, and pushing solar power over wind as being more economically feasible.

I could write a similar article on The Truth About Solar Power too.  From an economic feasibility standpoint, neither one is economically feasible for grid tie (not considering the incentives available).  People do a lot of things that aren't economically feasible - like buying and driving a car for personal transportation.  There's no way, with the cost of a new $30,000 automobile, maintenance on the thing, and gas at $3.50 a gallon, that the average person can ever come out financially on that deal - but people do it every day because it's considered "normal" in our society.

The same holds true with wind turbines, for anybody that has grid power.  Except that wind turbines are not considered "normal" in our society like cars are.  But they're dang cool - one hell of a lot cooler than a bunch of boring solar panels on your roof.  And some people don't care about "payback" or "practical" because it's cool and they're making some of their own power with a source that never runs out of gas (or diesel fuel), doesn't pollute the environment, and gives them a backup in case their grid power goes down.

There's a lot of things you can buy - even a standby generator for your house in case grid power goes out - that are not economically feasible when you figure the "payback" on that generator sitting there most of the time unused.  Hell, even fishing isn't economically feasible by the time you buy a license, a boat, all the equipment, burn gas to get to the lake, burn gas in the boat to get the good fishing spot, and catch one legal fish for the day.  You can go to the store and buy your fish cheaper.

And this is where your article is going to turn a lot of people off here - they see it as negative towards wind power, pro solar power, they already know "the truth", and they don't care because they got a wind turbine and it's cool and fun.  And it generates power no matter how dismal its performance.  And that applies no matter if it's a homebrew machine or commercially bought.  There's more than just economic feasibility when it comes to some things.  And for a lot of people who want a wind turbine because they love the concept, you can throw economic feasibility right out the window.  Your article doesn't take that into account - it approaches the issue from the standpoint that it all has to boil down to dollar and cents, and forgets those who have more dollars than sense, and don't really care because that wind turbine is really dang cool.
--
Chris

[Antero]

I agree with Chris Olson.

I have written about windpower and my experience about it, to many sites a long time.
To some people and their interests, it does not suite, that one could really make his own energy with windpower.

Nowadays it has raised a huge interest all over the world, with raising energy prices and the demand to produce energy
to your own household, without any pollution.

Please write more against the windpower !

Here in Finland I have seen during the years, that, the more there is writing against, with "different" arcuments, the more
people are interested and now we have here a lot of people, who have made decision and take windpower to their
primary energy source.
Now there is the second round going, when all the neighbours want to have windpower too etc

To Freejuice; You can get those towers and windgenerators from Exmork. Ask them to send the price list. They sell directly to consumers;

http://www.exmork.com/

Antero Rantanen
Finland
antero.choiceforwind@sci.fi
Phone int + 358 40 511 5245
Fax     int + 358 2 841 5818

[Rob Beckers]

Rob, I think you're targeting a different "market", if you will, with your article than what you're going to run into on this forum.  

Chris, No surprises there, I'm fully aware of the audience I'm talking to on this forum. I also believed that the target audience of my article was clearly described (and those are not the DIY turbine makers). It seems some persist in misinterpreting my intentions. With that in mind I've added a few lines to the article to make it crystal clear what I'm talking about.

As to wind vs. solar, I truly have no preference either way. What I try to convey is the simple reality that any (and I do mean any) installer who does both solar and wind will tell you: Very, very few will have turbines that didn't need work beyond an annual check/maintenance over a 10-year time span, while the vast majority will tell you they never had a callback (nor annual maintenance) for their solar PV installations. That is simply reality. If some don't like to hear it that's fine. It doesn't make it less true. As they say, you can lead them to the water, but you can't make 'm drink...

If you have lots of wind, by all means, put up a turbine (and if you're off-grid, put one up anyway, even if you have little wind).

-Rob-

[ChrisOlson]

As to wind vs. solar, I truly have no preference either way

Rob, what I'm saying is this.  You state in your article the following:

"Truth is that unless you live in a very windy place, you will be better off putting your money into solar PV. Period.  It is hard to beat the advantages of solar" and etc., etc., etc.....

It appears to me that you do have a preference - for solar as you seem to keep falling back on solar PV as "the answer" because it "just works".  Well, solar doesn't always "just work" either.  But that's another story.

Your article spends a lot of time explaining why small wind doesn't work for most people, and it doesn't work because the economics dictate that it doesn't work.  The reality is that small wind does work for most people.  I know at least a couple people who have bought little Sunforce microturbines and installed them in their back yard.  They have no illusions about powering their house with the turbine, or even getting their money back out of it.  And the turbine might only make 50 or 75 watts because they have it installed in a poor location.  But they like it because they got a wind turbine.  It doesn't work to its full potential, but it still works and makes some power.

There's just as much of a market (probably way more) for these wind turbine "hobbyists" as there is for people who need a payback on a $50,000 turbine.  Even though their turbine might only make 2 kWh in a month, they enjoy it, and don't regret spending the money on it.  And it does make them a small amount of power.

I think that's where your article somewhat misses the mark on small wind.  It doesn't address the fact that a small wind turbine does not have to perform to its full potential to be useful, depending on the situation and needs of the person flying it.  Your article only stresses that it doesn't work for most people, and you have to live in a very windy place to get it to "pay off".  For at least one person I know who has one of those little Sunforce turbines, it paid off the day he got it up on his 26 foot pipe tower and seen it run and make 50 watts.  Telling that guy he's doing everything wrong and to make it "really work" he needs a 5 kW turbine on a 120 foot tower in his back yard misses the whole point.  Telling that guy his money would've been better spent on some solar panels instead of that wind turbine misses the whole point.

Sometimes people who got 15 or 20 or 30 foot turbines laugh at somebody who builds or buys a little 3 footer, and they miss the whole point too.  If that little 3 foot turbine makes 1 watt then it works, and just because it doesn't make 10,000 watts doesn't make it any less useful or fun for the owner.  In small wind, there's a bigger market for "hobby" or "fun" turbines than there is machines that have to perform to their full potential to recover their cost in "x" amount of time.  Your article doesn't address that at all.  So while the installers are sitting around lamenting on how small wind doesn't pay off, the Chinese build and sell microturbines by the boatload because they see the market for them.
--
Chris

[ghurd]

The last words cover that.
"Finally, what if you do not have much wind to speak off, no expectation to ever earn back the investment in a small wind turbine, but you just like the looks and want to promote the idea of a greener life style. Those can be fine reasons to install one too. Just go for it!"
G-

[Antero]

Chris Olson;

  "So while the installers are sitting around lamenting on how small wind doesn't pay off, the Chinese build and sell microturbines by the boatload because they see the market for them."


This is the truth now.

How is it possible, that in our Western and European world, there is no mass factory produced cheap and real options for small  windpower ?

We can get complete and good 5kw diesel generator under 500-1000$, but 5kw windgenerator costs ..  

Its no wonder, that Chinese economy boosts with douple numbers, every year !

Antero

[Rover]

Hi Rob,

I'm not getting into the wind vs solar debate, at this stage , probably pointless, I do have both. I did enjoy reading the article and thought it was well written.

I did pause when I read this theme a few times through the rarticle, one quote chosen "Wind turbines generally produce most energy in the winter, when solar panels fall short." .

I can attest to my wind turbines doing better in the winter, but I can't attest to my solar doing worse (if so it is marginal) . Yes, there are less "Sun" hours , but my efficiencies go up with the solar. I have less haze/pollen/yada  in the winter (I live in suburbia of a small city), panels are cooler. My data logger shows I do better in the winter. I don't have a tracking system, although I do change the angle towards the sun during seasons.

Once again, this is only my experience, mileage may differ, yada..

or it could be I just don't know what I'm doing (another common theme in the general population, board members excluded)



   

[Rob Beckers]

Chris, it's a matter of optics: You're seeing lots of people that put up a small turbine, with no expectations of economics behind it, and it does what they want from it. They're happy. That's great! I'm all for it, and applaud them! Again, that is not the target group for my article. I can't state it any clearer than I do in the first few paragraphs. What I see (unfortunately quite a bit these days) is people who sank a lot of money, often tens of thousands, into a wind turbine, with the expectation that they would be printing money (usually with the help of rebates). For those it more often than not does not work out. Their turbine breaks far more often than they can afford, and it doesn't produce anywhere near the kWh's they were promised by their installer. It is that latter group I'm trying to educate. While wind enthusiasts may not like the message, a great many with decades of experience in wind have acknowledged it is accurate (don't take my word for it, ask Paul Gipe, Michael Clemen, Ian Woofender, or Mick Sagrillo).

Wind vs. solar: I stand by what I wrote. I would love to see more wind turbines, but if it's people's dollars (and usually large numbers of dollars) my advice is indeed for the majority to stick with PV. Wind turbines are not for everyone. It is not my preference that dictates this, but logic.

Antero, not to rain on your parade, but take a look at this thread: http://www.greenpowertalk.org/showthread.php?t=12007
From my experience supplying inverters for a great many Chinese wind turbines that are installed all over North America that story is typical. Not the exception, but the rule.

-Rob-

[Rob Beckers]

I'm not getting into the wind vs solar debate, at this stage , probably pointless, I do have both. I did enjoy reading the article and thought it was well written.

Thank you!

I did pause when I read this theme a few times through the rarticle, one quote chosen "Wind turbines generally produce most energy in the winter, when solar panels fall short." .

Same experience here: Some of the best production in winter for PV. What I meant was that if you're off-grid, wind and solar complement each other. Unless you have weeks of battery backup, there will be times (storms) when solar falls short and wind takes over. Even with solar doing great in winter, it's tough due to the few sun-hours mid-December (at least at our latitude). That's all.

-Rob-

[ChrisOlson]

Wind vs. solar: I stand by what I wrote. I would love to see more wind turbines, but if it's people's dollars (and usually large numbers of dollars) my advice is indeed for the majority to stick with PV. Wind turbines are not for everyone. It is not my preference that dictates this, but logic.

Solar power isn't for everyone either.  Without incentives or government programs, neither one is practical for grid-tie for the average consumer.

There's an interesting story about wind power:
On June 2nd and 3rd, 1973 a Wind Energy Conversion Workshop was held in Washington, D.C. The gathering was sponsored by the National Science Foundation and implemented by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Well sir...conferences and symposiums and workshops and all the other fancy meetings held to "study" a problem are all right, I suppose. But a fellow sometimes wonders if they're worth the trouble it takes to organize them.

This particular assembly was no exception. For, we're told, after nearly twó days of absorbing reports and addresses from people who've experimented with and used wind power...many of the "experts" and "engineers" there still didn't have what you could call a grasp of the energy source's potential. "You mean you really run all your lights and appliances and a typewriter and stereo and TV on electricity produced by a windplant? You mean you're doing that right now?" one incredulous engineer asked Henry Clews .

"I mean, if this thing actually works we should find out if it's practical enough to put into production. "

It was then that an authoritative-looking 70-year-old gentleman rose to his feet in the audience and said, in effect: "Why, you young whippersnapper. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. Not only will windplants work...not only can they be put into production...and not only can they be manufactured and sold profitably...but I personally built and marketed approximately 50 million dollars worth of the units from the early 30's to the mid-50's. We were already in full swing before you were born. "

That gentlemen that addressed the "experts" that day in Washington D.C. was Marcellus Jacobs.  He invented the wind turbine as you know it today.  You can read the whole interview here:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1973-11-01/The-Plowboy-Interview.aspx

The truth about small wind turbines is that they have worked for centuries to pump water and grind grain, and in more recent years to generate electricity.  The problem today is the outrageous price that manufacturers and installers charge to put wind power systems in.  And this is where the grassroots of small wind power is today - right here - the people who build and fly their own turbines.  Not some over-priced commercially built machine that nobody can afford.

This is primarily a homebrew group - not a bunch of dudes sittin' around trying to decide if they should drop $50 Grand on a Bergey Excel.  So if your primary audience was the dudes sittin' around trying to decide if they should drop $50 Grand on that Bergey, then telling this group The Truth probably missed the mark by a tad   

--
Chris

[DanB]

Ill chime in again - seems like really everyone has good points.
I think the article is about dead on though.  It is hard to find an industry with more unhappy customers than small wind these days (save the health care industry) - at least in the US...

For most of the 'interested folks' (and potential customers ) it just doesn't make sense - yet dealers and manufacturers will be chasing those dollars.

It does vary what makes sense - no matter what your engine is for generating electricity, cheap fuel is the ticket.  If it's sun - you need a fair bit of it, same with wind.  Trouble is wind also requires patience, land...  a local government that doesn't have its head up its @#$@  (you know what I mean)  - wind is tricky and to quote Brent from the SWCC 'not for the faint of heart'.  Solar works for lots more folks but it's seemingly lots more boring and lots less sexy!

I think the article is spot on for telling folks the reality of it all.  I will send that link to lots of folks who email me anyhow.

That said - wind is my favorite energy and my favorite hobby and a bit of my work so I just love it, but I think we need to inform people of the realities.  There are lots of folks in the world (7billion or so).  If small wind is good for just one in 10,000 of them...  there's still one hell of a big market isn't there 

[scoraigwind]

The last words cover that.
"Finally, what if you do not have much wind to speak off, no expectation to ever earn back the investment in a small wind turbine, but you just like the looks and want to promote the idea of a greener life style. Those can be fine reasons to install one too. Just go for it!"
G-

I agree that people who want a wind turbine should be allowed to have one, even if they live on a poor site, provided that they understand the downsides.  But I would not call if a greener lifestyle since the turbine will never pay back its cost of production and will end up being a consumer toy that illustrates and confirms the futility of renewable energy to a skeptical world.

[Rob Beckers]

Thank you for the feedback Dan!

Hugh, I phrased that most carefully as "to promote the idea of a greener life style"... 
In a larger context it's something I often contemplate these days. For now my believe is that the benefits outweigh the downsides: There are still so few renewable energy sources (at least around here) that every single one automatically becomes an ambassador for RE and promotion for a different approach to life. That is if the thing actually works, and the owner is happy. Another reason why I wrote the article.

-Rob-

[imsmooth]

I really enjoyed your article.

I built my 10.5' wind turbine in an area with a lot of trees; but, I did it because I wanted to take on the project, learn the crafts necessary to achieve this, and I wanted to make a statement about RE.  If I lived in an area with no trees I would have build a 20-25' turbine.

That being said, almost all of my electric bill is covered by solar energy and is well worth the money as your article implies.

I am curious how many turbines you install for people, and what the average person spends for a professional installation?

[Seekscore]

Some folks up the road from me had a Skystream installed last May. Of course, its installed on a tower way too low. Probably the 30 foot tower they advertise. Its only 5ft above the trees and probably even with the house next door. I haven't talked to them but the county web site for permits says the project cost was $16400.

Mike