Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type  (Read 282171 times)

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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #396 on: October 04, 2011, 04:25:13 PM »

Hi, the bottom pulley is mounted using a hub that spins the main rotor shaft, all other pulleys and the blades rotors have bearings. The offset pulley shaft is movable and will have top and bottom shaft tension spring loaded bolts to keep the belts at a constant tension. I hope to have it completed soon and a photo will give a better explanation. Rounding the teeth on the pulley is a good suggestion and will be incorporated on the next modification. Thank you it is a good idea. 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #397 on: October 05, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »
Greetings, I completed the spring loaded bolt mounts to maintain a constant tension on the belts. The springs pulsates when I spin the rotor. This is showing that the pulleys are not prefect circles or the belt is riding up on the pulley teeth or a combination of both. This is a problem that will have to be resolved. It does work well enough for a road test. Comments welcome.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 06:24:18 PM by GoVertical »
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artv

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #398 on: October 05, 2011, 07:06:12 PM »
Hi Go,...Amazing......I'm a little confused as to adding all the gears ,belts and spring tensioners'....they all add drag(friction) to the system.......You are trying to increase rpm are you not??.........I see all these additions, as stealing rpm from you.....
Could be I'm totally missing something :-\......wish I could work like that...........artv

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #399 on: October 05, 2011, 10:02:42 PM »
Hi Go,...Amazing......I'm a little confused as to adding all the gears ,belts and spring tensioners'....they all add drag(friction) to the system.......You are trying to increase rpm are you not??.........I see all these additions, as stealing rpm from you.....
Could be I'm totally missing something :-\......wish I could work like that...........artv

Hi, there are many drag blade configurations that have high torque and low RPM. The transmission is just for increasing the RPM at the PMA.  The gears I made make a lot of noise, the belts are very quiet. I just trying to make a low cost transmission.  So far the belt drive I am working on has the lowest cost, is easiest to fabricate, and make the least amount of noise. A transmission does reduce efficacy but there is so much torque with a drag blade configuration and the wind is a free resource adding a transmission maybe worth the loss to gain the needed RPM increase.  I found that the belts are riding up on the pulley teeth that is causing the pulsation on the movable shaft. I am rounding off the teeth and it should solve the problem.     


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Madscientist267

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #400 on: October 09, 2011, 01:47:46 PM »
Wondering too if the natural stretching of the belts with use will not only manifest as slack to be taken up with the spring loaded bearing, but as a difference between the teeth in the gears and the notches on the belts as well.

Kinda like trying to put a screw into a nut that is the correct diameter, but the wrong thread pitch.

Make sense?

Steve
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #401 on: October 09, 2011, 08:23:43 PM »
Hi, the pulley teeth are now more likes waves. Thank you for all the help I am receiving. Basically it shows I can fabricate the needed pulleys. Because of the resizing of the pulleys the ratio is now 1: 5
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Volvo farmer

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #402 on: October 09, 2011, 10:20:31 PM »
If I was the guy in charge of making the notched belts at the belt factory, I don't think I'd care much about small variations in the inside diameter of the belt, nor would I care if the notches are equally spaced.  The width, angle and outside dimensions of a notched belt are the critical dimensions, none of which you are using in your design.
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TrackerJack

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #403 on: October 09, 2011, 11:28:56 PM »
If I was the guy in charge of making the notched belts at the belt factory, I don't think I'd care much about small variations in the inside diameter of the belt, nor would I care if the notches are equally spaced.  The width, angle and outside dimensions of a notched belt are the critical dimensions, none of which you are using in your design.


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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #404 on: October 11, 2011, 12:46:36 AM »
Hi, I may resolved the belt tension issue. I plan on mounting four stationary idler pulleys, two sets, a set for each belt. The idler pulleys will position the belts to encompass more of the transmission pulley. The movable shaft can than be positioned to draw the belt snug. The grooves on the transmission pulleys provide enough traction to prevent the belt from slipping and the position of the idler pulleys will prevent the need for excessive bearing load and still allow the transmission to  spin freely. Comments welcome.  
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« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 12:53:17 AM by GoVertical »
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #405 on: October 11, 2011, 02:14:33 PM »
Hi,  I completed the new pulleys. Spring loaded idler pulleys maybe the better option.  It should mount directly to the top of the PMA, enjoy the day.




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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #406 on: October 13, 2011, 12:06:52 PM »


Fixed idler pulleys failed.

 

Photo of proposed spring loaded idler pulley. I was concerned the idler would not stay perpendicular when applied to the belt but the J hook keeps it aligned. I am adding the spring loaded idler pulley because I do not know how much the belt will expand and contact and being able to adjust the belt tension will keep bearing load to a minimum. Comments welcome.
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mab

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #407 on: October 13, 2011, 12:54:47 PM »
Just a suggestion; but I wouldn't use 2 tensioners (idlers) on each belt - ideally, the 'load' side of the belt should run straight and a tensioner should be on the slack side (preferably fixed).

Admittedly, I wouldn't use Vee belts this way either - but that's another issue.  8)

m

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #408 on: October 13, 2011, 07:58:18 PM »
Hi, my only experience with V belts are my car and my snow blower. This is a experiment. I am using the auto V belt a different way, I fabricated the pulleys so the belt rides on the cogged edge not the angled V sides. I do not know if the belts will slip or how much tension will be required. I have to cut new mounting plates. If this does not work I can replace the belts with high torque timing belts. Thanks for information about the idler pulleys.       
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #409 on: October 13, 2011, 08:07:04 PM »
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RP

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #410 on: October 13, 2011, 08:32:54 PM »
Those both seem to be advertisements.  Did you paste in the wrong links?

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #411 on: October 13, 2011, 09:31:37 PM »
Hi, I have no association with the products. I posted them just to show a new technology and where the belt idea has come from. If it works on a bike then it may work for a wind turbine transmission.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #412 on: October 14, 2011, 07:35:56 PM »
Greetings, I completed the belt and pulley fabrication. As suggested one idler does work better than  the double idler configuration. The unit is very quiet, but does add drag to the system. I have to add bushings between two bearing on the double pulley fixed shaft side and design a better idler pulley assembly. The design is 90% there if I purchase the correct belts and do some fine tuning it should make my project a functioning unit. Thank you for all the help I have been receiving. I will post road test results in the near future. Enjoy the day.
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Madscientist267

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #413 on: October 14, 2011, 08:02:32 PM »
I'm sure I speak for quite a few in saying that we're "on the edge of our seats" on this one... ;)

I hope it pays off so to speak; you've surely put enough effort into it.

Steve
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #414 on: October 15, 2011, 09:06:35 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylkPilnxBco


Hi, video of 1: 6.5 ratio belt drive. The pulsating sound is from a bad bearing in the test fixture. There is a small amount of noise coming from the belts and pulleys. I am surprised how easy it spins.  The results justify buying the correct timing belts for the application. I think it is a viable solution to increase RPM for my project. Comments welcome 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylkPilnxBco
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #415 on: October 17, 2011, 01:04:40 PM »
Hi, I completed the belt drive installation on the PMA.  It is ironic that there is to much wind today for a road test.  :'(


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Bruce S

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #416 on: October 17, 2011, 01:15:32 PM »
AHhh I see Murphy has noticed you too. ;)
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Madscientist267

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #417 on: October 17, 2011, 11:41:21 PM »
Holy...

(resisting the urge to use multiple expletives in series to describe the reaction...)

That's one very nice looking piece of engineering there man.

I really hope that it does what you want it to. You've put a lot into this, no doubt. And two questions come to mind...

1 - If there's too much wind for a ROAD test... (you see where I'm going with this, right?)  ;D

2 - I think this one begs to be able to break the rules (or at least exploit the standard workaround... Where's the high resolution version of the above image so we can get one of them "up close and really personal" looks at this thing...?

Very nice indeed.

I think I speak for EVERYONE when I say "Don't leave us hanging..."  ;)

Steve
 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #418 on: October 18, 2011, 08:34:58 AM »
Hi, after I installed the belt drive I tried different manual tests and I found that the mass of magnet rotors required a higher belt tension to prevent belt slipping.  I ordered a set of larger timing belts and I have to cut new pulleys. I discovered that because I offset one pulley I have to increase the diameter of the blade rotors to allow for  blade clearance during rotation. After the modifications if belt slipping is still a issue the multiple belt technique maybe the solution and I plan to add the design in the next modification to reduce bearing  load. I am just working out some details.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #419 on: October 20, 2011, 07:00:51 PM »
Hi, photos of belt and pulleys with idlers. The configuration may not be mechanically correct but the belt does not slip and has low bearing load.  The configuration allow the pulleys to be placed much closer than normal and the belt cogs mesh with the pulley teeth.



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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, Belt drive
« Reply #420 on: October 31, 2011, 09:55:49 PM »

Greetings, I finally found the correct timing belts. I had to make new pulleys. I purchased them for a auto parts store and the sales person told me they should be replaced every 60,000 miles :) The teeth are very large and the belts do not stretch. All the problems have been resolved and I do not for see any maintenance problems. Please disregard all earlier posts about timing belts. I am using a standard configuration for one direction operation. Enjoy the day. 




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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #421 on: November 04, 2011, 03:30:03 PM »


Results from todays road:

 

The inner set of blades are still to close and hit the transmission pulley.

I was able to do run the test using the just the outer blade. I noticed a improvement with the cut in voltage at a lower MPH. Shortly after cut in I heard a ratcheting sound of the belt jumping the teeth on the pulley caused from the movement of the idler pulley. I have to move the inner set of blades to a location where they will clear the pulley and  improve the design of the idler pulley. Hope to road test again in the need future.   
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #422 on: November 05, 2011, 02:53:31 PM »
Greetings, results from today's road test :
the idlers need to replace with a better design. The force the belt is placing on the idler's is great and pushes them away from their ideal location. I am also taking the time to cut better cogged pulleys that will fit the belt pattern better. The results of today's test indicates once the problems are solved with the idlers that larger blades or blades with scoops will be needed. Comments welcome.
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Norm

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #423 on: November 05, 2011, 03:49:35 PM »
Greetings, results from today's road test :
the idlers need to replace with a better design. The force the belt is placing on the idler's is great and pushes them away from their ideal location. I am also taking the time to cut better cogged pulleys that will fit the belt pattern better. The results of today's test indicates once the problems are solved with the idlers that larger blades or blades with scoops will be needed. Comments welcome.

Have you ever thought about putting the idlers on lever arms in such a way that the more torque the more
tension is applied automatically ?
Norm

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #424 on: November 05, 2011, 07:20:30 PM »
Like a tensioner? Like is used on every automobile (or anything else I have ever seen) with a toothed belt?
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Norm

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #425 on: November 05, 2011, 07:51:19 PM »
Something like a tensioner ...but I used it once on a belt drive with a
car starter on a 8 hp Briggs ....turn the starter on and the slight drag of the loose
belt caused the starter to pivot and take up the slack in the belt,
soon as the engine started the return spring slackened the belt drive.

But in his case with cogged belt he would just need a tensioner.
Norm.

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #426 on: November 05, 2011, 09:04:28 PM »
Hi, I am just starting to realize the amount of force that is on the low belt. I had the idler's and the second pulley shaft as tight as I could get them and when the PMA  output was at 1 amp the idler and the second shaft moved. There is a lot of force on the belts. I now know where the second shaft should located. The fix is just to use a simple hole instead of a elongated hole for the placement of the second shaft and use a double bolt configuration for the idler. This should solve the movement problem. Thank you for all the suggestions.
 
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #427 on: November 10, 2011, 12:11:58 PM »
Project update: Using a suggested method, I removed the idler pulleys and fabricated a u bolt mount to adjust the timing belt tension. It is very smooth and quiet. If the belt does not stretch there should be no maintenance required. Will post results of road test when available. Enjoy the day.





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KBwind

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #428 on: November 10, 2011, 01:07:26 PM »
Govertical- I have been following this project from its infancy and it certainly has been interesting and educational to see how many pully, timing belt, and gear systems you can put together. I believe the key to the difficulty you may be having can be found in one of your quotes from about a month back stating the turbine spun at 130 RPM in 40 MPH without gearing. This suggests you have serious aerodynamic issues to deal with before even the best transmission system will aid your performance.
 I don't recall off-hand the radius of your turbine but I remember a picture you posted and it looked around 15 or 16 inches. With that value you had a TSR of 0.304 at a speed rarely realized in real life situations.
There are two possible explainations to this. First being that this wind speed is well beyond the peak of your TSR curve - this is assuming that your aerodynamics for one reason or another lend themselves to peaky TSR curves. Does the slope of your RPM vs. windspeed curve drop or change sign throughout the considered wind speed range? You could calculate this by graphing the RPM vs. Windspeed - use a spreadsheet program to calculate a second degree polynomial trendline - then calculate the first deriviative of the trendline equation using matlab, similar or by hand if you like calculus. Graph the trendline derivative - where this line crosses zero is the wind speed for your optimal TSR. If this is the case and you have a curve with a peak (as oppossed to one that levels out) I would focus my efforts testing within a range of this peak. In any case I would focus my road tests on a range between 0 and 14 m/s and save the high speed runs to test the turbine survival speed.

If your tsr curve is not a peak and levels off at a max TSR of 0.3 unloaded (or even loaded for that matter) you have aerodynamic issues to deal with. Conventional theory states that the max tsr of a standard savonious is about 1 at a Cp of about 0.2 (ofcourse all these figures are debatable). In reality I dont imagine many diy-ers able to approach these theoretical limits but above 0.6 should be acheiveable. I realize you are trying some inner-cups/outter-cups type design but perhaps you should consider a more conventional savonious drag turbine. A google scholar search for Savonious rotor should yeild plenty of material to help with the aerodynamics of your turbine. I recall a paper from a researcher named Manet from some university in France. The paper presents dimensions for an optimized s rotor based on a vast amount of research around the world including sandia and all those guys.

Anyways, after some basic work on the aerodynamic assembly you may be able to increase your operating RPM by nearly double and this will put you in a much more reasonable range for generating electricity. Clearly, you enjoy what you are doing and your cnc/fabircation techniques are impressive so a little time on aero now can save a lot of drivetrain alternator time in the future. I realize I should have posted this five transmissions ago. Keep up the good work, we are all learning something!
-KBwind