Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type  (Read 282172 times)

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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, mold and turn counter
« Reply #264 on: July 15, 2011, 11:32:17 AM »
Fabricated new mold. A saddle will now be cast into the stator to prevent stator movement. I also added a thumb counter to the coiler winder. Enjoy the day. 


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Madscientist267

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2011, 12:17:45 AM »
There's a pretty wild dynamic going on here with all these coils and magnets...

I can't say for the rest of the guys, but I for one am now thoroughly confused as to which way is up for all of this.  ???

Your stator arrangement (individual coil polarities) may either be dead on or dead wrong, depending on how your magnets are set up.

Seems to me as though the output is still kinda low. Granted, I'm arm-chairing it here, but even with shorts aside, the entire thing should be putting out more than it does at a given RPM.

The coil diagram is a good start, but how do the magnets play into this?

It looks (from the drawing, if taken verbatim) that you have every other coil in a phase (color), out of phase with the next coil in line for that phase, within each stator. Forget for a moment that there are 3 stators; look at it as if even just one were present. Something seems off to me.  :-[

There's nothing wrong with that, provided the magnets for that phase angle are pointing in the opposing directions, so that the EMF is electrically additive, and not negating.

To see what I'm talking about, reduce it (in your mind) to a single phase, single stator, with 4 magnets (just on one side of the stator, on a single rotor, for simplification). If configured for the stator as drawn, the magnets would be at 90 degrees to each other, every other magnet flipped N-S-N-S.

That's all fine and good, until you need to add the other 8 magnets to the rotor. Then you end up with N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N (I think?). Not conducive to nice smooth sine waves at the output.

I may be so far off on what I am seeing that this particular piece of my input may be of no use to you whatsoever.

But, if not, there's no surprise that the output is very small.

Anybody else seeing this? Or am I really missing something?  :-\

Steve
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 12:28:32 AM by Madscientist267 »
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oztules

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #266 on: July 16, 2011, 06:46:03 AM »
Steve
"That's all fine and good, until you need to add the other 8 magnets to the rotor. Then you end up with N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N (I think?). Not conducive to nice smooth sine waves at the output."

Thats all fine and good....... but I think he's using 16 magnets, 12 coils.... in three stators...... in phase

So he has 12 coils per phase (in phase in series) spread over three stators.....  does that help untangle things.... and of course 64 magnets to finish it off?
 
If he had only 12 magnets/ disk and 12 coils per stator....... he would need to overlap/interleave the windings,  and then he would have to use  artv's diagram from windstuffnow



..............oztules
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 07:05:01 AM by oztules »
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA update
« Reply #267 on: July 16, 2011, 07:21:42 AM »
Steve
"That's all fine and good, until you need to add the other 8 magnets to the rotor. Then you end up with N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N-N-S-N (I think?). Not conducive to nice smooth sine waves at the output."

Thats all fine and good....... but I think he's using 16 magnets, 12 coils.... in three stators...... in phase

So he has 12 coils per phase (in phase in series) spread over three stators.....  does that help untangle things.... and of course 64 magnets to finish it off?
 
If he had only 12 magnets/ disk and 12 coils per stator....... he would need to overlap/interleave the windings,  and then he would have to use  artv's diagram from windstuffnow



..............oztules

Hi, the current configuration is 16 magnets on each rotor. Each stator has 12  coils wired to have 3 inputs and 3 outputs. I traced the problem to shorts between the phases on two stators.  It must have happened during the casting of the stators. Images shows how I am wiring the stators.  Casting new stators today. Thank you for all the help am receiving.

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Madscientist267

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #268 on: July 16, 2011, 10:46:23 AM »
Ok, knew I was missing something... Forgot that there were 16 mags, not 12.

The main thing I was looking at was apparently just a resolution issue hiding the polarity of the coils; the single stator detail looks good.

Rock on, man. LOL

Just would have hated to see you have to cast yet another set of stators... I'd imagine that it gets old after a while... ;)

Steve
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, casting stator
« Reply #269 on: July 16, 2011, 07:07:05 PM »
Greetings, kitchen cutting boards make a great mold if you can cut it using a CNC router.  I do enjoy the fabrication process when it works.
two more to go. Enjoy the day.

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oztules

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #270 on: July 17, 2011, 12:00:12 AM »
Fiendishly nice looking stator... well done.


...........oztules
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Tritium

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #272 on: July 17, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »
Interesting Price $3200 American dollars. No Thanks.

Thurmond

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #273 on: July 17, 2011, 09:52:54 PM »
Greetings, what I find interesting is that it is very similar to the design I am working on. It must be using very large magnets to achieve the high output at that RPM. I wonder why it has no inputs? It looks like just two stators on the same drive shaft. Yes, it is expensive, I guess your paying for the performance.   
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Tritium

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #274 on: July 17, 2011, 11:40:44 PM »
Inputs?  It has two separate 3 phase outputs. Each stator individually. One would use two 3 phase rectifiers and then parallel or series the dc output of the rectifiers depending on his voltage or current requirements.

Thurmond

RP

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #275 on: July 17, 2011, 11:46:08 PM »
It doesn't look like there's much room for magnets in that thing.  I wonder if the output is "calculated" as open volts X short circuit amps. 

ghurd

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #276 on: July 18, 2011, 01:19:39 AM »
It doesn't look like there's much room for magnets in that thing.  I wonder if the output is "calculated" as open volts X short circuit amps. 

Obviously, there is room for magnets.  He says the magnets are from China.

It doesn't look like there is room for 2,000,000 watts to fit in the wires.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #277 on: July 18, 2011, 02:07:34 AM »
Project update:

Completed all new stators.

Stacking the stators and rotors in a vertical configuration dependently works. The voltages add up as more stators and rotors are added. The configuration uses less magnets than a dual rotor configuration with the same coil count.  Earlier reported problems have all been resolved, the solution was making sure the coil connection were all correct before casting the stators. I  will post test results when available.  Thank you for the help I have been receiving.   
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, edit last post
« Reply #278 on: July 18, 2011, 04:45:34 AM »
Project update:

Completed all new stators.

Stacking the stators and rotors in a vertical configuration definitely works. The voltages add up as more stators and rotors are added. The configuration uses less magnets than a dual rotor configuration with the same coil count.  Earlier reported problems have all been resolved, the solution was making sure the coil connection were all correct before casting the stators. I am will post test results when available.  Thank you for the help I have been receiving.   
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #279 on: July 19, 2011, 12:30:45 PM »



Greetings, completed test fixture. Slowest speed is about 200 RPM. Measured no load about 40 vac. I need larger v belt pulley on top of PMA to better regulate speed control.  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 12:34:06 PM by GoVertical »
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #280 on: July 19, 2011, 07:58:39 PM »
Hi, I am still working larger v-belt pulley.

Posting know specs of newest PMA configuration:
3 phase Star/ 12 coils per phase
coils: 2 in hand 22 AWG, 100 turns
phase resistance 9.7 ohms, measured at output to output
16 magnets/rotor, 1 x ¾ N42 cylinders

Measured using 12 volt battery as load:
190 RPM
Vdc = 11.5
Amps dc = 3.5

I will post more measured values when available. Thank you for all the help I am receiving.
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, testing PMA
« Reply #281 on: July 20, 2011, 05:47:05 PM »
Hi, I found a limitation of the current bench fixture. The motor on the mill lathe over loads when the PMA output reaches 3.8 amps.  I need a better AC motor for the test bench fixture. Can anyone recommend a electrical motor that would be suitable for testing the PMA? Comments welcome.
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RP

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #282 on: July 20, 2011, 07:38:31 PM »
It overloads at about 40 watts output?  Are you sure there is not some kind of frictional problem with your belt setup? 

I think people here have used cordless drills to test PMAs at a higher output than that.

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #283 on: July 20, 2011, 08:46:14 PM »
Hi, with no load I can reach higher RPMs. When I use the battery as a load the max RPM of the test fixture is 200 RPMs, then the motor turns off and starts again, then the cycle repeats. I am adding a heavier gauge wire from the bridge rectifier to the battery to see if that helps.  If I am unable to improve performance of the test fixture performing a road test is my only other option at this time.  So far I have only been able to collect 2 data points using the battery as a load.


RPM        volts dc       Amps
100             12             1.0
200              12             3.8


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RP

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #284 on: July 20, 2011, 09:09:35 PM »
Can you tell us more about how the speed of the mill is controlled? 

Is it electronic and/or is there some kind of variable pulley system on the quill drive?

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #285 on: July 20, 2011, 10:07:36 PM »






Hi, I also have a router speed controller that I use for lower RPM settings. Using the configuration in the photos the max speed is 200 RPMs with a battery load. The lathe motor has a centrifugal switch that I can hear click when the motor comes up to speed. 
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dave ames

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #286 on: July 20, 2011, 10:41:20 PM »
Hi GoVertical,

Exciting times!  :)

I suspect the "R" in IxIxR is taking it's share  :'( ..all those series connections :-[

we might get the resistance internal down by a factor of three by adding our voltage up after taking it off the stators with a different configuration approach.

might try this method to compare?


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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #287 on: July 20, 2011, 11:16:49 PM »
The router speed control is designed to be used with a brush type universal motor but I suspect your lathe and quill motors are induction motors which won't behave well with anything less than full voltage unless you change the frequency of your AC as well.

Can you try moving the quill drive belt to the low speed position?  That will give you more torque to drive your PMA

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #288 on: July 21, 2011, 05:03:18 AM »
Hi, the 200 RPM max with battery load value, I was using Grid full power. It will take a few days to purchase more bridge rectifiers. If I wired the stators as a delta would that lower resistance of the PMA. I am not really sure how to wire as a Delta? Using the provide image designations how are the inputs and outputs connected to form a delta?

3588-0
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 05:07:22 AM by GoVertical »
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #289 on: July 21, 2011, 05:36:17 AM »
Hi, with so many connections possibilities, I could wire each phase in parallel between the different stators to lower the internal resistance of the PMA. The 3.8 amp barrier should be reached at a higher and if the motor does the same thing than I would know that 3.8 amps is the lathe motor limit.  Using the two data point that I have is there a mathematical solution to predict the PMA output at a higher RPM?   
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #290 on: July 22, 2011, 10:31:03 AM »
Hi, project update.  Added larger diameter wires from PMA to bridge rectifier and found poor connection on one of stators. Unit runs much smoother. Currently resolving drive belt slipping issue.  Large internal resistance of PMA is limiting power output, thank you Glenn for making me aware of the relationship.  Each stator has inputs and outputs making parallel connection possible. Will post results when available, currently searching for other stator and rotor magnet configuration to reduce internal resistance and produce optimum performance at low RPM.
Comments Welcome.         
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA update
« Reply #291 on: July 22, 2011, 01:07:00 PM »
Project update:  resolved drive belt slipping issue. I connected the three stator as 3 phase star with 4 coils per phase then connected each stator in parallel. Measured dc amps = 4.7 @ 300 RPMs, battery load voltage = 11.7, internal resistance measured from phase output to phase output = 1.4 ohms. PMA running smooth on test fixture.   
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, testing PMA
« Reply #292 on: July 22, 2011, 03:47:33 PM »
Hi, I am finding adjusting the belt pulley ratios very confusing. I just measured 6.5 amps @ 360 RPM
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GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #293 on: July 23, 2011, 10:48:51 AM »
Today’s test result:

1 Stator      Phase output to phase output = 4.3 ohms

load voltage   dc amps      PMA RPM
11.67      0.38              190
11.75      2.06              310
11.86      3.8              440      

2 Stators      Phase output to phase output = 2.4 ohms
11.61      0.51              189
11.74      2.6              288
11.85      3.8              340

3 stators      Phase output to phase output = 1.9 ohms
12.0             0.03             150
11.41          1.56             186
12.6             2.95             270

Each stator was configured as a star 3 phase.
I only changed the drive belt on the lathe to create different speeds at the PMA.
Data was recorded adding stators in a parallel configuration at the different speed produced by the test fixture. 
 
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electrondady1

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #294 on: July 24, 2011, 11:39:49 PM »
i don't understand " phase to phase " in relation to  dc.
 what is the total resistance  of the blended dc output?
the toal resistance of the alternator after rectification?
1.9 ohms?

GoVertical

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Re: VAWT new proto-type, PMA testing
« Reply #295 on: July 25, 2011, 12:49:38 AM »
3627-0


Hi. I measured the resistance between L1 and L2.  As I added the stators using a parallel connection the resistance decreased and the output increased at a lower RPM. It look like the more stators I add the lower the internal resistance becomes and the efficiency increased. There must be a limit.  The connection scheme I thought would not work well turns out to be the best way to connect the stators. I am making another stator to add to the unit to see if it is beneficial.  Highest output I have been able to measure so far is 6.5 amps dc at 340 RPMs using a battery as a load.
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dave ames

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Re: VAWT new proto-type
« Reply #296 on: July 25, 2011, 04:01:15 AM »

Hi Govertical,

That's some great progress in the PMA testing!

You were able to get some helpful insights in your companion thread topic:
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,145678.0.html

Sometimes it gets a bit hard to follow with the topic spread out across the board like that..but you did get a measured mix of comments and that's the main thing.  ;)

Surely you have run into sparwebs helpful document:
http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks.pdf

With your nice test rig there it sure would be a good time to explore the relationship of all those  alternator conncetions you have available? If you are at all like me with some of these things..it sometimes takes a seeing and doing to see the interacting relationships of voltage and rpm various stator connections have.

If you have received your bagfull of bridges it could be fun to try all kinds of variations! Page 15 of sparwebs white paper shows our possible connections and it's a go to source for easy stator configuration. Hint: be sure to give every wire a letter or number designation..then it's just paint by numbers to wire it any way you choose.

An Interesting (if not controversial) project you have here and will continue to follow along. :)

cheers, dave