Author Topic: Self sufficiency  (Read 404 times)

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sh123469

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Self sufficiency
« on: November 04, 2004, 04:17:42 PM »
Given the results of our election the other day, the forecast collapse of the dollar, the promise of terrorism if Bush were re-elected, etc., it would probably be in all of our best interests to be as self sufficient as possible.


Some of the oil producing nations are switching to Euros for transactions.  The Chinese are beginning to use Euros instead of US dollars, many forecasters are predicting the demise of the dollar in the next few years.  The value of the dollar is falling internationally.  Energy prices as well as prices for all foreign made goods are going to continue to rise unless something happens to strengthen the dollar.


If some of the rumored power grid attack plots are carried out, most of the country may be dark for a year or so.  We will need to have a way to provide some energy for ourselves.


I will be growing a large garden next spring to help offset food price rises and to hopefully have some food in case of supply chain/price problems.


My alt. energy options here are somewhat limited.  Very little wind, lots of shade, no creek, fussy neighbors.  I will be trimming trees and putting up some solar as time and funds permit.  Added insulation for the house is on the plans also.  Every bit to reduce dependence on foreign supplies and high-priced fuel sources whose prices only go higher helps.


I hope the forecast problems don't occur but it would only be prudent for us all to evaluate the situation and prepare as we can and see fit.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 04:17:42 PM by (unknown) »

electrondad1

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2004, 07:04:21 PM »
it can't hurt to be prudent for all the reasons you mentioned and more the canadian government has just released the results of a five year study on arctic climat change there is mention of massive animal extinction and loss of the permanent ice cap. the future is not going to be any thing we hoped for . better get self sufficient  and on some high ground.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 07:04:21 PM by electrondad1 »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2004, 09:00:37 PM »
the canadian government has just released the results of a five year study on arctic climat change there is mention of massive animal extinction and loss of the permanent ice cap.


When a government agency talks about environmental changes - including a fractional degree change in average temperature - there is ALWAYS talk about massive animal extinction, loss of the permanent ice cap, flooding of coastal cities, yadda yadda yadda.  I take it with a grain of salt, and will continue to do so until I see a believable model that actually predicts a significant change AND correctly models the past changes - which the current ones (except for the "it's all because the sun's out put varies" models) do NOT.


Meanwhile, if global warming from CO2 actually turns into a significant issue, there's a really simple fix:  Spray a few hundred pounds of iron compounds over the south pacific.  This has been shown to cause an enormous algae bloom (because they're nutrient limited there, mainly on iron) which sequesters a LOT of CO2 - sinking much of it to the bottom where it will stay for thousands of years before deep currents bring it back up.


Not something to be tried unless we are about to lose the SOUTH polar cap or something similarly catastrophic.  The downside is it might start an ice age that would stick due to a positive feedback loop.  (Lower CO2 -> lower temperatures -> (less evaporation -> less rain, more water trapped in ice caps) -> bigger deserts -> more dust in air -> more nutrient dust into South Pacific -> more algae -> still less CO2.)


As to energy self sufficiency:  Massive terrorist attacks might cause serious grid damage I don't expect TOTAL blackouts of multi-month duration.  Lots of ways to get the grid back up even with major damage, and even a large long-term capacity shortfall can be handled by rotating blackouts (which will let you keep food cold, etc.).  What DOES seem reasonable is higher prices for power and fuel.  That shifts the economics to make alternative power economically viable in far more places.


Right now alternative power is only economically viable where running grid power is too costly, extreme resources (i.e. water power) are available, or there are other benefits, including notably: hobby fun, self-sufficiency serenity, and emergency backup.


Those are not to be sneezed at:  Hobby fun reduces capital costs by recycling leisure activity into construction, shifting the cost model.  Self-sufficiency promotes health, reducing medical expenses and drains on retirement savings, etc.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 09:00:37 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

bob g

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2004, 09:45:41 PM »
i would tend to agree with ULR on his points,


considering that one serious volcano eruption put out more green house gas than man kind has done since the beginning of the industrial revolution, along with alot of other nasty by products that produce acid rain etc.


this old planet has a way of cleaning itself up, plants love more co2 and it has been found that certain plants have mutated to be able to use carbon monoxide that we have produced that didn't exist before man started to burn oil.


not saying that we can't dirty up the nest, god knows we have. But save mass neuclear detonation i don't think we are going to ruin the planet any time soon.


as far as the dollar, there may be some up and down adjustment, but lets face facts here, the dollar isn't going to go away anytime soon. And if it should we will have much bigger problems than our alternative energy will solve even on a personal basis.


as for energy prices i would agree they are likely to go a bit higher before tapering back somewhat, but i doubt seriously they will ever get down to 20 bucks a barrel again. And i think we may as well get used to 2 buck gasoline as the bottom end.


as for self sufficiency i am all for it, but i would hope that the usa will continue on  in a reasonable fashion. Would make my life off grid very good indeed, and if things go down in flames i guess we better all have a big garden, and a bigger gun to protect it.


To all my counterparts the democrats amoung us, don't dispair things will go on. Just take some solice in the misery that mr. clinton caused my republican brethren not that long ago.


We survived him and i am sure you will survive mr. bush


your compassionate conservative board member


bob g

« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 09:45:41 PM by bob g »
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Gary D

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2004, 05:59:25 AM »
Hi sh123469, I agree with your statement "prepare as we can". Putting a wad of cash out on credit cards with high interest rates could bankrupt you quick! Start small, if you feel you have time before what you think is coming. Then you can learn from any mistakes, and if you wish, grow your system to complete independance without breaking the bank (or yourself). One step at a time may be prudent.

  I'm a Republican, but I voted my conscience, ie. I felt a line was crossed between assertiveness and agressive behavior. My opinion only here. And yes we will go on! That's what America does no matter who the current leader is. Hope you study many articles posted here, there is a wealth of info. on many ways to lessen the need for grid power. Hang in there, Gary D.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 05:59:25 AM by Gary D »

nothing to lose

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2004, 08:08:47 AM »
Yes Y2K is comming life will end!!!


Huh, is this a repeat of something I have heard before? Like before 4 years ago? Mass panics by lunitics? Not meaning anyone here, I mean people I knew in person.


Always good to plan ahead and be prepared in a REASONABLE manner. I also try to keep alot of food on hand, just so I don't have to drive in town to buy it if I don't want to for a few weeks or months. Right now I ate it all and have to buy more soon, but then again I save money buying in bulk this way too, so if the world ends, I normally can eat awhile anyway and save money doing it too :)

 I often buy non-perisable foods buy the skids, great variety, great savings. $500 per skid or about $1000 at the store! Anythng we don't eat we donate to charities, plus alot of stuff we do eat too. So being prepared has advantages! Even the local stores will often sell buy the case or several cases far below retail, I have to order and wait a few days till the truck brings it in. Alot depends on the store managers and some won't do it no matter how much you buy.


For Y2K I did stock up about 150-200 gallons gas over a slow period before it, not a mad dash rush at the last minute like alot of folks. Not that I was worried about the end of the world comming on 1/1/2000, but I expected many people to be in a panic all at once that hadn't prepared anything. Some tiny little thing and people go into a panic and create a rush on a store. The other people NOT in a panic go to that store and it is nearly empty and then they go into a panic. THAT is how many disasters and panics and problems get started. Not the event, over reaction!! Also I KNEW gas prices would go up, not because of Y2K but just because they do go up, so it still saved me money buying the gasolene at the lower price then and using it later when prices went up.


On 9/11 I needed gas for most my vehicles, for absolutley no reason concerning gas itself gouging accured imediatly here. Prices shot up $0.50 a gallon everywhere here but one indpendant station that stayed the same price and did not gouge. I just filled up at home and did not care, everyone else was making a made rush on the independant or paying far to much and it was a mild panic. Never before had I saw traffic at this little town blocking the road waiting to turn into a gas station!! Never have since, just on 9/11

Problems don't cause problems, PEOPLE cause problems!

 Of course the next day gas prices were back to normal anyway. So many people paid $10 too much to fill their cars and trucks in a panic that should have never happened to begin with, good for them!! Some probably just needed gas as normal and I felt sorry for those people having to pay those prices.

 And yes, all those gas guzzling SUVs and big trucks used for just joy riding were in that line filling those 25 gallon tanks and deul tanks too!


There is never any reason to panic, well unless maybe the IRS is knocking on the door.


As mentioned, the earth will take care of itself! It can clean itself, it can shake us off like fleas if it wanted too. But there is no need to harm it anyway, especailly needlessly for no reason.

 After all, my hand will heal just fine if I cut it, but I won't just sit here cutting it with a knife so it can heal itself either!!


"The value of the dollar is falling internationally.  Energy prices as well as prices for all foreign made goods are going to continue to rise unless something happens to strengthen the dollar."


HUH, that would be a bad thing??

Gee I certianly hope foreign prices don't rise so far that US companies are forced to creat jobs in the US and produce stuff at home, gee that would be terrible if people had jobs and we had to stop importing everything from overseas! What tragedy!

Less people unemployed, less on welfare, gee it could do something awefull like lower taxes even since more working people would mean a larger number of people to tax. More people less per person, less spent on support programs for the jobless etc.. Lower taxes is just wishfull thinking, they would find other things to waist the money on and still need to raise taxes all the time no matter how much they get!


 Another terrible thing that might occure is that US made goods might get close the the same price as foreign made goods and we might actually sell stuff to other countries agian.


 No probably none of that would happen, people would just demand more money for the same work and our products will always cost more!


 As for being self suficient, yes always a good idea, anything you do for yourself you don't have to pay someone else for! And if you do it for yourself then your never stuck without it if a problem pops up and you can't buy it for some reason!

 And in any type of disaster you are at the advantage, rather the weather snows you in, the grid goes down (gee has that ever happened large scale), or major tornados/hurricans, Flooding. It's not paraniod to be prepared, it's common sense. Every part of the US has some type of problem at some time. Did I mention forest fires or earthquakes??


 City dwellers are at the disadvantage, not much room, zonning, codes, nosey neighbours etc...


Country folks can survive :)

« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 08:08:47 AM by nothing to lose »

Tom in NH

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2004, 09:18:29 PM »
Becoming more self-sufficient is preferable to becoming more dependent. This is true whether predictions of a global warming catastrophy are true or not. Terrorism and a busted economy notwithstanding, becoming more energy self-sufficient is a wise thing to do because the world is burning up the last petroleum and nobody seems to be paying any attention. I believe in a few years we will look back on 2004 and say, "that was when world oil production peaked."


Bad things happened when US oil production peaked. Those were the days of lines at gas stations and buying gas only on odd or even days.


Now if you look at virtually any conflict in the world, there is oil nearby. Iraq and Saudi Arabia hold 2/3 of the world's remaining reserves; Venezuela, Sudan, Nigeria. People are fighing over the declining supply of what's left.

--Tom

« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 09:18:29 PM by Tom in NH »

skravlinge

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2004, 03:35:32 AM »
The prices of  oil will be higher, as more and more people demand it, it is in fact more people today in the world who can demand than before. The oil will last forever due to the price (the last drop will be too expency to buy) will make it less of  interest for application today.

Most people are not shifting from oil of  care for the enviroment - money talks better.

 In Denmark  they have taxed fuel hard since long time. Today 25% of the electricity comes from wind. In Sweden they tax  oil hard 1000 liters cost

about 1100 USD. Since the last  time the  tax went up near about all I know, who still heat there houses with oil, are going to wood, in forms of pellets made from sawdust  and other "wast" wood. It is possible to convert oilstove with automatic feeding of pellets. Biodiesel are  on progress, it is taxfree

and the  Farmers need to expand their markets to keep on.

Myself have used wood, since long, mostley free if I clean up for the folks and transport it away. I wonder how long it will last, as higher demand on  wood might press the prices there as well.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2004, 03:35:32 AM by skravlinge »

finnsawyer

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2004, 09:46:05 AM »
Some years ago I was burning 5 full cords of wood a year and was in the process of depleting a 40 acre stand of hardwoods.  That's for one household!  I learned then that burning wood isn't going to work on a large scale.  I still own 40 acres of hardwoods, but twenty acres of that is 30 miles away (I plan to retire there).  Bottom line?  If everyone is going to burn wood you can kiss the forests goodbye.  Also, burning wood pollutes.  All I have to do is step outside of my house when the wind is right to detect that.


The U. S. has vast reserves of coal.  We could go back to that.  I heard recently that there is enough natural gas off of the east coast to provide our nation's needs for 70 years.  It's deep, but it's supposedly there.  Of course, either could be used to make gasoline.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2004, 09:46:05 AM by finnsawyer »

Gibby

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2004, 06:53:51 PM »
Not only did the volcano spew out the CO2 but the forests throughout the United States, especially California, would burn down every so often as the only way to put the fires out was for it to rain.


Although I am not for abuse of our natural resources I am for the use.


Having said that, I have a feeling that alternative fuels would already be produced if politics were not involved.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2004, 06:53:51 PM by Gibby »

Gibby

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2004, 06:54:50 PM »
Burn Corn!  Burns cleaner and grows back in three months.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2004, 06:54:50 PM by Gibby »

finnsawyer

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2004, 09:58:33 AM »
Have you looked at the energy costs (fuel, fertilizer, insecticides, herbicides, etc) that must be paid to grow corn?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 09:58:33 AM by finnsawyer »

skravlinge

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2004, 02:58:15 PM »
It is always local  resources which shows the best to use, I do not know the forest in US, and I do not care very much if you transport your wood with  harness, it up to you to make the choose. In my country, which has 70% of the area  in trees, and a lot of it is farming area which feed us  by a fraction of use, some of it can be used for biofuel which can be harvested by at least  on an annual basis. The local condition is we are  populated as Mantattan, and still bigger in area than Germany , Italy and UK together which is about the  Usa in number of people. We live north, we are farming at a lathitude equal to North of Hudson Bay. It works  due to the Gulf current. New York has about the clima here, but the lathitude is like Portugal, a country which not know a winter.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 02:58:15 PM by skravlinge »

Miner Scott

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2004, 11:50:23 PM »
I have to agree some what with GeoM in that coal has a greater value in that we have so much of it.  and if burned properly you don't spread your problems to the 4 winds.  Trees are slow growing (and tough to burn properly) and the actual cost of bio-fuels (corn) need to be factored in. to the value of the fuel.  Realistically it still boils down to the cheapest that is available to you. We could heat our houses with solar panels but at what cost? When it comes to being frugal ("cheep") I have to be in the top 10. that's why I burn coal (gasp) because its free.  (job perk) I still only use about a third as much as my neighbor and I burn it cleaner  in a smaller stove with lots of combustion air and a smaller and hotter fire.  There is never any visible smoke from the 4 inch pellet vent stove pipe.  No unburned hydrocarbons and CO. burning less and burning it cleaner has to be better.  My next project is putting up a small wind gen up here on the hill, the ironic thing is that it will have a excellent view of the 3  525 megawatt coal burning plants across the valley(state of the art scrubbers and I wish the big city papers could tell the difference between smoke (politicians) and steam (cooling towers)     wow I must be up too late! What a rant.   Sorry .   the wind gen will look like the mouse in a popular poster a few years ago flipping a finger at a eagle that was going to crush and eat it.   Still gathering parts for it need to put together a blade set and alternator. I have the frame and hub for one of Hugh's frames built.(it still amazes me how much steel a mine "recycles"....read throw out) and I have a 40foot free standing "steel reinforced concrete pole" for a tower it was free but the 2 cubic yards of concrete to stand it on  wont be cheep.. Poring it tomorrow it wont be cured till spring...  hopefully will get some pix. To post .. good night all........  Scott
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 11:50:23 PM by Miner Scott »

nothing to lose

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 02:13:51 PM »
If people use it properly there is plenty of feul for heat and other uses.


I am getting into recycling about everything, not to be friendly to the inviroment but because I am cheap!


Burned properly even old tires and plastics can be used, though I don't burn those myself. Some of the boiler feuls like pellets contain ground rubber from old tires. For those massive boilers and extreme heat produced the rubber burns cleanly mixed with the other feul like wood or coal. In the USA I bet we could heat the entire country 10 yrs if we dig all the tires out of the dumps and off the side of country roads where they were tossed as trash!


As far as power used to grind the tires to a rubber dust, good use for the old fasioned grist mills powered by water or wind, grind tires instead of grain.


Plastic will burn also, about the same as rubber. Another 10-15yrs heat from soda bottles!


The trick is only burning a feul cleanly, plenty of feul!


One of my plans if I can find a "FRIEND" with equipment to test for various pollutants is to run a charcoal maker. I will burn wood, dry leaves, pine needles ect for heat to bake the wood. Baking wood produces gas that will run an engine, I will run a gennie off that gas and also try pumping some into tanks for storage. I will capture all the waist heat I can for other uses also.


Once I have the first few batches of charcoal made, then I will use that as a filter for other uses. Main thing I want charcoal for is a blacksmith forge and metal casting foundry for hobby stuff so byproducts of making charcoal such as gas and heat are free. I will most likely cool and clean the hot gas by filtering through dry saw dust, rocks and water, use some charcoal to filter the water as I recycle it.


The dirty saw dust and charcoal after useing it for a filter can be used to feul a fire again latter, thus burning the polutants filterd from the gas. Total air polution will be no more or actaully less than a fireplace burning wood.


As for the water, it can be cooled gaining heat for other uses, once very dirty it can be boiled off to steam in one container and condensed in another without any pressure, also could be charcoal filtered. This will recycle the water to be used for filtering again, simply leaving the crud behind in the first tank or contained in charcoal.


One cord of wood can be used for tons of uses at the same time, or you could just burn it for heat and waist the rest!


As I mentioned if I can find a "Friend" with test equipment, then I also plan to burn other feuls for heat to feul the process. I beleave proper filtering and reburning will alough garbage to be burned. Stuff like old tires, soda bottles, styrofoams etc.., anything that produces tons of heat. The only trick is stopping the polutants from reaching the air. Not all but most pollutants wil burn in a fire if hot enough. Like rubber tires, they smoke like heck if you burn one in the yard by itself, but ground and used as part of the boiler feuls they do not. The boiler fire burns them about as clean as coal or wood. Oil is another example, just light some and let it burn it smokes badly, in a proper oil furnance it burns alot cleaner.


I beleave that's a big part of the answer to the feul problem and others. Build a proper furnace to burn the trash and use the trash instead of filling dumps with it.


I geuss you can still buy them, years ago grandparents had a nateraul gas incenerator. It used gas to feul an extremly hot fire which burned the trash quickly, cleanly, and fully. Problem was it served no other purpose than burning trash and it used feul to make heat to waist to make more heat that was also waisted.

 But it did burn anything cleanly, you could only tell it was working by the heat waves comming out the pipe.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2004, 02:13:51 PM by nothing to lose »

finnsawyer

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2004, 10:20:32 AM »
Yeah, a lot of these techniques work when there is a proper balance between the population and the environment.  Where I live, in the upper peninsula of Michigan, we have a population of about 300,000 in a region of roughly 400 miles by 60.  Most of it is wooded and a lot of wood fiber is wasted.  Or is it?  A complete ecosystem depends on the decay of wood in the forests for its survival.  So, do you want to remove all of the wood fiber?  Probably not.  We also want to grow wood fiber for commercial uses.  That's what pays the bills.  The amount that's left for energy generation is probably not that great.  It's likely instructive that no one has seen fit to generate electricity using wood.  For the U. S. on a whole forget it.  There is just not enough wood fiber being grown.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2004, 10:20:32 AM by finnsawyer »

underground renagade

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2004, 01:12:10 PM »
My wanting to get self sufficient has nothing to do with fear. It is self presservation as no one will listen to my concerns about health. Want out so I can be incontrol of my life.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2004, 01:12:10 PM by underground renagade »

finnsawyer

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Re: Self sufficiency
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2004, 10:11:57 AM »
There are always byproducts of combustion.  I seem to remember that tires contain sulphur.  They tried burning trash in large amounts here in Michigan.  Too much mercury emissions.  And let's not forget dioxins.  Just because it seems like you can do something on a small scale without apparently causing harm doesn't mean it can be done on a large scale.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2004, 10:11:57 AM by finnsawyer »