Author Topic: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar  (Read 2060 times)

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dnix71

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Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« on: January 22, 2013, 08:09:28 PM »
After reading one of the complaints against MWS it dawned on me that both sides were talking past each other and missing a solution. The complaintant stated that his 300 watt AirX did better than a "1600 watt" storebought mill and the MWS reply failed to address the issue.

The AirX has a built-in MPPT. That's why they hum  >:( . The store bought mill has no MPPT, but in a typical grid-tie, the inverter performs that function. With solar you can go direct to batteries, but that is not as good as having an MPPT if you can afford it.

The homebrew mills here don't need an MPPT necessarily, because the number of coils, air gap, wire sizes and delta vs. wye wiring out act to match the mill impedance to the battery bank. Trial and error has led to the design of "self-regulating" power transfer in homebrew mills. The need for a dump load means you are doing it right. You have power to spare.

Since people don't typically make their own solar panels, and most commercial panels are designed to be grid tied, a solar to battery system needs help extracting the max power from the panels. In an audio system, impedance matching isn't needed if you use mosfets, what you want is maximum voltage transfer. Older audio systems used transformers to match impedance and therefore maximum power transfer.

Maximizing voltage transfer in a solar to battery system would not be a good idea. The batteries and connected equipment have a narrow range of safe but usable voltage. An alternator charges a battery quickly because it forces the maxmum safe voltage on the battery.

So the best return on a solar to battery system means matching impedances to maximize power transfer. Here is where I think many MPPT's need improvement. I opened my BZ and discovered the panel negative and battery negative are directly wired together. That's probably common, but it means that impedance matching is probably impossible given that batteries are not purely capacitative and solar cells are semi-conductors whose impedance varies with light and temperature.

The fastest charging is constant voltage (with temperature compensation for the sake of the battery). It would seem to me the best way to go solar to battery would be to have the solar connected to a boost transformer and HV capacitor array that would fill the caps and then switch them over one at a time to a separate buck transformer that would force constant voltage onto the battery until the cap was drained and switch to the next full cap. The battery side wouldn't need to be steady dc charging, nor would this be desirable. Pulse-width modulation would probably work better and would ring the battery to break down sulfation.

If all the caps in the array get full and the battery gets full, the MPPT would simply idle until a cap was drained and available.

Does this sound doable?

joestue

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 09:59:08 PM »
you have a misunderstanding of impedance,the impedance needs to be be zero ohms for 100% efficiency
 
the batteries have an impedance of something like say 5 milliohms (meaning if you short circuit the battery you get 12v/.005 or 2400 amps)
the solar panels have IV curves that aren't simply current sources in series with resistors, so you could describe the panel as having a non linear impedance as a function of sunlight.. which is why the MPPT must have some intelligent algorithm to get the maximum power out of the panel.

the input and output impedance of a typical Dc-dc converter is on the order of tens of milliohms as well but there is more than one "impedance" to describe. dc-dc converters designed to dump power into a battery have to be current mode controlled and so the actual output "impedance" is meaningless, and all we care about is the efficiency and the current ripple on the input if its a single phase buck converter.
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dnix71

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2013, 07:51:23 AM »
Batteries age. Sulfation doesn't necessarily increase internal resistance, but it interferes with effective charging. My BZ500 MPPT has trouble pushing current into the current set of batteries. The voltage rises too fast and then the BZ backs off and seeks. A buck transformer that held steady might do better. The BZ has a common ground between the panel and battery negatives. I want something with both sides isolated from each other to make power pull and push as simple as possible.

The batteries I have take a charge eventually and have plenty of power for what I need, but they do not seem to be a good match for the panels I have. Both cost too much to just replace one or the other in the hope of finding something better.

joestue

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 02:03:53 PM »
can you limit the maximum current going into the battery? and dump the difference somewhere else?
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OperaHouse

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 05:17:20 PM »
This board is battery centric, charge the battery first and then figure what to do with the power.  The next generation of controllers will be smart.  Providing the power to needed tasks first, anticipating what power will be available later and scheduling battery charging later.  This will lower overall battery requirments.

gww

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 07:44:48 PM »
Oprahouse
Not quite the same but in a simular direction as you have just pointed out.  I have not heard feed back of anyone using what the below link is talking about.

http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3537&p=22542&hilit=tallgirl#p22542

Cheers
gww

boB

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Re: Maximum power transfer from wind and solar
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 06:00:28 PM »

The AirX has a built-in MPPT. That's why they hum  >:( . The store bought mill has no MPPT, but in a typical grid-tie, the inverter performs that function. With solar you can go direct to batteries, but that is not as good as having an MPPT if you can afford it.

The homebrew mills here don't need an MPPT necessarily, because the number of coils, air gap, wire sizes and delta vs. wye wiring out act to match the mill impedance to the battery bank. Trial and error has led to the design of "self-regulating" power transfer in homebrew mills. The need for a dump load means you are doing it right. You have power to spare.


I think you might be thinking of the SWWP Sky Stream rather than the Air-X ??

MPPT for wind is not so much to match impedance but instead to operate the turbine at the proper  TSR which is
typically fairly constant with varying wind speed.

boB