output comparison

[artv]

Hi All,...I decided to try using a car alt for some testing....
I cut the wedge pieces off ,...slid a piece of pipe over and attached 12 magnets out of car starters ,to the pipe..
the left is what it looked like originally , the middle is the pipe with mags attached,...and on the right is the stator with six leads coming out ,...and hard to see but a secondary coil added.....
I tested each phase by itself ,at the max rpm of my cordless drill....the best reading was 3 volts dc...Jerry rigged
I tried to add the three individual phases together .....It took a while but finally got it....output at max rpm is now 9.25 vdc....this is how it was connected.....then I tried my way ,..by hooking the positve of the cap to one of the untied phase leads, instead of the positive out of the bridge, increased the output to 10.25 volts dc ....with all three phases
Now I tried the secondary coil,.....this is only on one phase the other two aren't hooked in this test....the output was 10.45 volts dc at max rpm of the drill.....
These are just rough #'s , if I have time next weekend will give more accurate ...
The original diameter of the wedged pieces was 12 inches,.. my mag armature was only 11 3/8 inches ...so the gap is big ....more to do.....artv

[wooferhound]

Here is the typical "Jerry Rigged" configuration

We really don't call it Jerry Rigged anymore
it's called Individually Rectified Phases, or IRP for short

Nice Project

[Jerry]

Hi woof. I've got to try to get use to the term IRP. We might have to call my blades PBS (plastic blade set) OH I think someone is using PBS. OH we'll think of something LOL. Just kiden. artv your alternator looks to have a stock stator. Just wire it as per woofs schematic. Just remove the caps. The rpm will be reduced by 3 and the voltage will be 3 X. Thats what I've been doing with the 24v stock stator. It works quite well. What kind of motor did you remove those magnets from? You said 12" diameter, that confuses me. A car alternator rotor is only around 4" diameter.

Jerry

[artv]

Hi Woofer ....I've seen that drawing many times before ......I'm an idiot I haven't been hooking things up right ( I thought I was)
I will definately pay more attention to what I'm doing.......thanks
Jerry.....Yes it is stock windings ...and sorry I should have said circumference not diameter....
The original claw tooth ( sorry not sure of the proper terminology) was 12 inches ....my armature is 11. 3/8 .....losing 5/8 ....
So my gap is 5/16 bigger than it should be??..........if so very bad for output......long way to go yet.....thanks .....artv

[bj]

Artv--not sure how involved you are with the alt conversions.  I played with them for a few years, and have a lot of
spare stuff.  Either PM me, or send me an E-mail if you are interested.   (my info is on the board)

[Jerry]

artv. The weather man says 30 to 40 mph winds today. I'll be making a video of the amp meters on the stock WindBlue, the modified IRP (Jerry rigged) WindBlue with Jerry blades and the factory Delco 24 volt alt. I'll post the #s tommorow. I'll also be tracting the 14-11 ceramic machine as well.

I had to take the Garbogen off line (took the blades off). Something has gone amiss on it, I'm getting 0 output from it. I think the bridges have opened up?

I'm looking forward to your next data report.

Jerry

[artv]

Hi All ,..I added some more coils to the other two phases
I kept melting the wires  and some, would just get red hot ,burnt my fingers a few times........
the wires in this pic were silver coloured ,..now they are burnt.......
All the testes the wires were sparking like crazy ,readings were very high, but not constant...
Then I tried house wire... 14/2 a single strand,...
Thats where I'm at right now.............it'll have to wait till next weekend
I may have mixed-up the pics...........artv

[artv]

Just fiinished this test......the light blue in the pic (above my thumb knuckle).....is the wire being eaten-up by the sparking action.....the reading is set at 200VAC on the meter.....This test is on one phase of the altenator.....
The wire seems to be disappearing into thin air ,is it burning up in the sparks some how???

[ghurd]

That is what sparks do.

Its possible you reinvented a magnetio.
Or a mini welder.

To me, best guess...
It sounds like you are charging the cap, the discharging it through a matching voltage.
Half the time (20VAC) the cap is charging.
Half the time is a low resistance 40VDC dead short.

Remember ignition points?
Points are the connection, or maybe where you are switching +wave to -wave AC.
The cap sort of stores the "zap power".
Shoots a spark across the spark plug.
Spark plus (mostly) have a resistor in them.
The electrodes in spark plugs disappear.


"the wires in this pic were silver coloured ,..now they are burnt"
Were they aluminum or tinned?
AL will not work so good for this application.
If there are sparks involved as part of the plan, then CU will not work so good either.


I think you are confusing voltage for power.
How many volts in a new car's spark plugs?  10,000V?  40,000V?  I dunno.
How much power do they use?  Not much.
G-

[Jerry]

artv. Looking at your schimatic,  you have the 3 phases wired in sires then the phases connect to the rectifier bridges. The your bridge dc outputs are perelled. Thats just wrong dud. LOL.

The only thing each phases should connect to is the ac terminals on its own bridge and nothing else. The sires connection should be made at the DC terminals of the bridges. At this point there is no out of phase condition. This is the same as a 3 battery flashlite (British tourch). Like this +- +- +- .  Like I've stated before. Treat each phase and rectifier as thougfh they are a complete and seperate dc power supply. Then sires these 3 seperate DC power supplies as though they are 3 batteries. Your actuly creating a bit of a short. No wonder wires are burning.

Just follow the schimatic the wooferhound posted. With that schimatic even the stock factory 12 volt stator will work with no additional turns of wire added. Just leave the caps out. I have found it works just as well when the rpm comes up, maybe even better. Sorry for missgiding you about the caps in the first place.
Keep expirimenting you''l get there.
Jerry

[artv]

Sorry I should have mentioned ,this last test was on one phase  AC only ,no bridges ,no caps and the other two phases not connected. Am getting readings bouncing between 60 and 110 volts AC now ,but I'm not even using the make breack connection now?
Thanks for reading...........artv

[tecker]

I not sure at present what Rpm this starts at but setting running caps on the star will put jump up the voltage to cut by storing what is normally held there .These delcos ususlly don't hit cut until 600 rpm .I can hit cut on my stationary bike with this setup .I 'll have to get the Rpm from it .

[artv]

Hi All,..I've been testing alot of different combinations, six wires for the phases and six for the 2nd's, but I keep burning up the connection
before it burns up the #'s out are very high , then they settle down...
Here's a 12V headlight ,showing amp draw, and voltage, no batteries , no capacitors,....this is without the 2nd'sattached,but they are in place... when this runs you can still draw off the 2nd's output......
a whole lot of testes to do yet.............artv

[ghurd]

Lots of issues.

"six wires for the phases and six for the 2nd's, but I keep burning up the connection"
To me, it sounds like something is shorted.

"Here's a 12V headlight ,showing amp draw, and voltage, no batteries , no capacitors,....this is without the 2nd's"
Is that 3.8V and 2.1A?  That's about 8W.

Exposed #28 wire should handle 2.1A for testing (but the testing would have errors, IMHO).

To me, it sounds like something is shorted.
Most probably shorted in the 'main connections'.

[artv]

Hi G-,..when running tests I'll just hook up wires to different leads (just touch them to other wires)....at the same time holding the drill ( gets tricky with all the different wires) .... ..I have made unwanted connections)..
I noticed when there is a bad connection the drill really pulls hard ..when it causes the drill to use that much more power ,does that mean more should be available,... a dead short ,juice going to ground??...can't you interupt it before it's gone....
Everytime I think I figure something out , I get 20 more questions..........artv

[artv]

Well I had a post ready but it said the file was to large......so the whole post disappears
Short version,the analouge meter is measuring output of a single bridge ,the digital is reading the secondaries output
here the 2nds are not hooked up
the light is off, ~1.99vdc  & 6vdc
now the 2nds connected
Still having lots of connection problems , but am going to keep trying different arrangements. I have seen better output.
Point is the bridge out stayed the same while the 2nds added.........hope this isn't too large....artv 

[artv]

forgot to mention, In the bottom pic you'll notice  black and red leads (top left of digital meter) these are 2 of the 6 outputs of the 2nds , everyone of those leads gives the same output as the one connected (far left red probe)
They are all positive outs, the grounds, are the ground on the bridge.
alot more things to try yet.....artv

[TomW]

Art;

Sometimes on "lost posts" if I catch it not posting somewhat quickly you can use the "back" button on your browser to get back to the original page you typed into.

One thing can sneak up on you is if someone else posts to a thread as you are composing you need to submit twice but it tells you in red letters someone else posted and you may want to revise your post. Simply click "Submit" again and it will post.

Tom

[artv]

I forgot this too

But after looking at it, I realized I still screwed up,...I've got the IRP paralleled..........I have to try it seriesed
maybe I just drew it wrong ..........time will tell...........artv

[ghurd]

I said "To me, it sounds like something is shorted".

You said "I've got the IRP paralleled".

Yup.  That is shorted.
G-

[artv]

Hi All ,..I tested it with IRP.....I got 6.7 watts,.... add the 2nds , I get 7.6 watts
IRP 7.5 vdc open , 12 volt headlight attached, 3.5 vdc, 1.95 amps =6.7
I just recieved an alt from a very generous member of the board, "bj" Thank-you Sir
Open volts are 21.2vdc ,..hook up the 12 volt headlight......15.4vdc,.....4.35 amps.........67 watts
I'll add 2nd's to it to see what happens...
So far in my tests (on my alt ) Star (wye) has given the best results 24 watts,...but that is with the star point hooked to a half wave bridge...so much to do ,not enough time.........Merry Christmas All.....artv

[artv]

Hi All,....Hope everybody is having a good holiday
I added 2nd's to "bj"s
It didn't work at all.....this was wired star(wye)
So I found the star point, and brought all 6 leads out.
You can put a cap across any one and all of those leads and charge it...
It'll charge to 28-30vdc
I've been doing lots of testing,..Just trying to figure, how the field is reacting???

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL ...... ...artv

[kenl]

Hi woof. I've got to try to get use to the term IRP. We might have to call my blades PBS (plastic blade set) OH I think someone is using PBS. OH we'll think of something LOL. Just kiden. artv your alternator looks to have a stock stator. Just wire it as per woofs schematic. Just remove the caps. The rpm will be reduced by 3 and the voltage will be 3 X. Thats what I've been doing with the 24v stock stator. It works quite well. What kind of motor did you remove those magnets from? You said 12" diameter, that confuses me. A car alternator rotor is only around 4" diameter.

Jerry

Jerry, when you say get rid of the caps do you mean all of woofers purple lines?  Does this decrease the amps?

kenny

[ghurd]

I've got to try to get use to the term IRP.

Hey Jerry,

We have to get terms that define the difference between the series circuit with caps, and the parellel circuit without caps.

I thought 'IRP' would be suited to the kind without caps, because that is exactly what it does.
Either a 3-ph with the star/wye point cut and sent to the bridges, or a 2-ph conversion (garbogen?) with the neutral cut and sent to the bridges.
The Phases are Individually Rectified.
Individually Rectified Phases.
IRP

The concept with the caps is something I can't think of a name for.
Series Rectifed Phases?
SRP?

I sent emails about it a LONG time ago.
I know you were busy and distracted at that time.
Maybe PM me here at FL, and we can talk about it?

[Jerry]

Hi woof. I've got to try to get use to the term IRP. We might have to call my blades PBS (plastic blade set) OH I think someone is using PBS. OH we'll think of something LOL. Just kiden. artv your alternator looks to have a stock stator. Just wire it as per woofs schematic. Just remove the caps. The rpm will be reduced by 3 and the voltage will be 3 X. Thats what I've been doing with the 24v stock stator. It works quite well. What kind of motor did you remove those magnets from? You said 12" diameter, that confuses me. A car alternator rotor is only around 4" diameter.

Jerry

Jerry, when you say get rid of the caps do you mean all of woofers purple lines?  Does this decrease the amps?

kenny

Yes I had better luck witout the caps. This is for the sires connected IRP. The sires comes after the bridges. The caps helped a littel at cutin but reduced top end output.

Jerry

[artv]

Hi all,
Ive been testing "bj's" alt wired IRP
21VOC /phase,....62Voc, all 3 bridges wired series.
Any single bridge,...21VOC,...hook 2 headlights, 2 tail-lights,...7.3VDC,...9.3AMPS=68W
With the 3 bridges hooked in series, and the 4 lights,....8.3VDC,...10.43AMPS=86.6W
So you only gain ~18watts ,with the other 2 phases??
Soooo what good is 3 phase??
I've run these tests over and over again ,keep getting the same results
With the 2nd's & caps(on a single bridge) I get,... 9.4VDC,....10.34AMPS=97W
I can get these #'s out of any 1 phase but can't get them to add???
Sooooooo what good is 3 phase if you lose so much when trying to add them together??.........artv

[rossw]

Hi all,
Ive been testing "bj's" alt wired IRP
21VOC /phase,....62Voc, all 3 bridges wired series.
Any single bridge,...21VOC,...hook 2 headlights, 2 tail-lights,...7.3VDC,...9.3AMPS=68W
With the 3 bridges hooked in series, and the 4 lights,....8.3VDC,...10.43AMPS=86.6W
So you only gain ~18watts ,with the other 2 phases??
Soooo what good is 3 phase??
I've run these tests over and over again ,keep getting the same results
With the 2nd's & caps(on a single bridge) I get,... 9.4VDC,....10.34AMPS=97W
I can get these #'s out of any 1 phase but can't get them to add???
Sooooooo what good is 3 phase if you lose so much when trying to add them together??.........artv

You need to consider the PHASE.

Adding them all in series won't really work because they're not all in phase. You can add capacitors across each bridge, but that only helps at low power levels. If you're running non-trivial amperage, the capacitors have to provide that on the phase(s) that are not at full output. That makes for some very big caps. Otherwise, they just discharge in a few milliseconds and provide little if any gain.

3-phase is far superior to single phase - a 3ph rectifier even without filter caps provides a pretty reasonable DC. But the trick is, you need to wind the machine to give you the volts you want. This nonsense of trying to series up inadequate windings is basically a lost cause at anything other than trival power levels.

[rossw]

I've answered your question with pictures over here...

http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,51.msg272.html#msg272