Author Topic: Wind-To-Heat  (Read 5837 times)

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Dan M

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Wind-To-Heat
« on: January 07, 2005, 09:45:31 PM »
I've been chewing on this, and thought I'd ask around:


If you put wind turbine blades on a hydraulic pump, pump the oil into your house (in insulated lines) and force it through a series of constrictions (I say constrictions because I don't know what the plural of orifice is), it seems you could do a pretty good job of heating the oil.


Any obvious reason that this wouldn't work?


Any pumping losses due to long plumbing between the pump and the house should supply additional heat if the plumbing was adequately insulated.


Any thoughts?


-Dan M

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 09:45:31 PM by (unknown) »

Norm

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2005, 03:13:02 PM »
   Agitating the oil...water with anti-freeze would be better? ... with paddles would maybe work better I think it was discussed on the old board maybe a search there will turn it up....

                ( :>)Norm.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 03:13:02 PM by Norm »

RickieBlue

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2005, 03:20:47 PM »
I think there would have to considerations made regarding heat loss at the pump, and at the lines. There are certain frictional losses through lengths of piping, and of course elbow restrictions. How would you store excess pressure? Only way would be to use an accumulator. In my estimation, heat loss through an alternator or generator, and a converter would be considerably less, and you can at least reclaim the converter heat..one poor mans thoughts...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 03:20:47 PM by RickieBlue »

windstuffnow

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2005, 04:14:26 PM »
  I've alway's though a VAWT connected to several eddy current heaters would do well.  Everything could be built underground and well insulated.  They heatup very quickly as long as their moving and rpm isn't a big issue, just lots of torque.


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 04:14:26 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

richhagen

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2005, 04:20:50 PM »
How would this compare in resources, maintenance, and efficiency to an electric mill.  It would seem to me that the thermal losses from a long, even insulated pipe would be a greater percentage than for an electrical generator at high voltage and a cable to a resistance bank.  It would seem a waste to just take good quality electical energy and convert it into disorganized heat though.  I'm just thinking that for the same resources, and maintenance, you could get more heat a good distance away from the mill with an electric mill.  I don't think either would be terribly good for heating.  I havn't thought about this a geat deal and I could be wrong.  Rich Hagen
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 04:20:50 PM by richhagen »
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windstuffnow

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2005, 06:29:18 PM »
  I think no matter how you look at it heating your home with wind power would be a stretch.  My house for example would require somewhere in the neighborhood of 130kwh daily or almost 3000 watts continuous.  It would require a pretty good size mill with a wind average of around 12mph.  I can see heating the hot water tank or other smaller tasks but heating a home is quite a challenge for wind and could end up being quite expensive.

  A better way might be to heat with wood or other renewable/waste and convert some of the heat to electric. We need more hybrid systems... furnace to heat the house which also heats the hot water tank and provides electric.  How about a hybrid frig that monitors the outside temp and regulates the internal temps based on those readings... it would never run in the winter.  Spending money for nothing doesn't seem efficient... what product does every one buy for the sole purpose of throwing it away?  Need a hint?  I only use the ones they give me and I still have to many...


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 06:29:18 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

Garry

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2005, 07:14:35 PM »
I am hoping to heat my house by feeding the generated electricity into a ground source heat pump.

Garry
« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 07:14:35 PM by Garry »

RatOmeter

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2005, 09:35:07 PM »
An accumulator is not a practical pressure/energy storage device. It's analogous to a capacitor in electronic circuits. "Super" capacitors notwithstanding, they're good for smoothing ripple from a circuit, but not as a storage device.


This is an interesting idea, since hydraulic systems have generally been considered quite efficient when compared to equivilent electrical systems. However, a significant part of that 'efficiency' is realized as space savings.  A 15 HP electric motor occupies much more space than a hydraulic motor of equilivent rating and weighs much more.


As to actual efficiency in hydraulic power transmission the ratings vary by pump and motor type, but most piston and gear pumps and motors range from low-to-mid 80's to low-to-mid 90's in overall efficiency, with the difference in mechanical vs volumetric efficiency varying by design type.


For a direct drive windmill design, I suspect a large displacement piston pump would be the best bet, delivering more volume at low speeds. On flaw in using it soley to provide heat, though; hydraulic systems will always generate heat. Most (good) systems are designed to dissipate that heat as readily as possible.  Relatively little thought has gone into preserving and using the heat generated in a hydraulic system. Heat is usually considered the enemy and ditched as much and as quickly as possible. Heat generated in hydraulics is caused by pressure drop, just as heat is generated in electrical circuits by voltage drop.  To get the heat where you want it, insulation is not the first-most important thing.  To keep wires from getting too hot in electrical systems, you make the conductor bigger... same thing with hydraulics, make the hoses/pipes bigger where you don't want heat to be generated/dissipated.


Another issue is ambient temperature.  By definition, if you're wanting heat then it must be cold outside.  Here's where the hydraulics/electrics analogy breaks down.  Copper wire conducts better when it's colder.  Hydraulic fluid becomes more viscous and requires more force to move it when it's cold.  ATF or brake fluid are less viscous but are (especially brake fluid) nasty stuff, requiring special seals and handling precautions.


Have Fun!

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 09:35:07 PM by RatOmeter »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat - friction heating system
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2005, 10:06:21 PM »


I'm not sure if this has been proposed, But i have been thinking about it for a bit now. An oil based friction heater (basically the oil between two very very close cylinders produces heat), on a wind turbine, replaces the electrical generator part. the hot oil caused by the friction is then pumped (the pump is also part of the turbine) to the house in insulated pipes directly to a heat exchanger or series of pipes to deliver the heat. I view it as a closed system from turbine to heating system. not sure what the effective output or heat would be, however I think it might just work. I was thinking of building a very small model using old soup cans and a variable drill just to see what would happen, but have not had the chance. The idea is nothing new, I have seen on the net some patents regarding it as well as some web pages.


A friend also suggested the possibility of using hydraulic pumps and motors (pumps run backwards maybe) from old cars, the idea was to use the pump (connected directly to the turbine blade) to move the oil, and by constriction or other method then convert it to heat. This could also be used inside the house to turn a generator. Thoughts are amazing things!


 

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 10:06:21 PM by iFred »

nothing to lose

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2005, 10:31:15 PM »
 "what product does every one buy for the sole purpose of throwing it away?  Need a hint?  I only use the ones they give me and I still have to many..."


Hey ya know if you collect the ones with the pretty pics you can sell them on Flea bay sometimes. I saw a couple go fairly high for being free giveaways to begin with.

Personally I get all I can, sometimes 20-50 at a time. Gonna build a giant mirror out of them someday and fry something. I like the ones that come in the neat DVD cases, I make alot of DVDs and that saves me alittle money. About 15-20cents per case.


I like the idea of making heat from wind. If we think about it, we can live without electric if we have too, but many people cannot live without some type of heat in the winter!! As for as the hydrolics, I think that's posibly alot of work and expence for little return though. As mentioned already, pipes, containers, restricters, insultation, ambient temps ect all come into play to make it complecated and expensive.


I do wonder maybe about a Hybrid system. If you could pump hydrolic to build a pressure when winds are too low to produce with a gennie, and also if you could just keep on pumping building pressure when winds are to high for a gennie, then use that hydrolic presure to run a gennie at a constant rate.


I don't know any real numbers so I'll just rattle something off as a example and if anyone knows the numbers please feel free to pop them in!!


Lets say it take 7MPH winds to produce 200watts with your gennie, but most your wind is only 5mph. Durring the 5mph build a pressure pumping into a hydrolic tank like an aircompressor, when you hit 150psi it is released at 20psi over time to run a geninie. The gennie will run till the psi drops below the 20psi then stops. Now if you had 16hrs of 5mph wind you would not have produced anything from the wind gennie, but by pumping into a storage tank and building a presure for latter use you have produced some power.


Now when the winds hit the 7mph mark and the gennie will produce power, kick out the pump and produce directly from the gennie and get all the power you can durring that time, say 2-4 hrs a day.


Now you have high winds also to consider. Say after 30mph you have to use some type of braking system to prevent over speed. Now kick back in the pump for the extra load to slow the mill down. You would be both producing power with the gennie direct and pumping a pressure for later use. If the hydrolic system had it's own gennie both gennies would be running at the same time producing alot of power on high winds.


Most or at least many hydrolic pumps are motors, motors are pumps, just depends how you use them. So another thought could be durring the 5mph winds build a presure up, then send it back to the pump to drive it as a motor. Being the pump is already running in the 5mph wind you only need to bump it up the extra 2mph to get it to produce. Should run longer on the same pressure and volume than running a seperate gennie, when the pressure drops below a certain level then change it back to the pump to build pressure agian and start the cycle over. Course if doing this then using it as part of a braking system would not work too well in constant high winds like a storm.


Don't know if that would work that way or not, but my thoughts and ideas on it. I think it would work well if you could build the pressure in low winds that are needed to run a motor to power a gennie. Even if it had to pump for 1 hour to run the gennie for 10 minutes you would stil have 240 minutes of power during the day you would not have had otherwise, if your using winds to low to run a gennie directly.


 That's how I would try hydrolics myself if I was going to. Transfering the electric to anywhere else then is easy and can be changed easily also if need be. Not much worry of leaks all over the yard or house, just near the tower and alot less to leak too.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2005, 10:31:15 PM by nothing to lose »

dconn

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2005, 01:27:18 AM »
How about auto AC compressors as the "generator" - would they be any use for making a ground source heat pump?  They also seem to have electric clutches which might be good for kicking the compressor in once the turbine has started up.


Derek

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 01:27:18 AM by dconn »

dconn

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2005, 04:22:41 AM »
I do mean car compressors - I said "auto" for the benifit of your US guys.


Derek

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 04:22:41 AM by dconn »

windstuffnow

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Re: Wind-To-Heat - friction heating system
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2005, 08:13:16 AM »
  I believe that was called the "frenette" heater and although it does work its not very efficient and does require a certain speed to produce a reasonable amount of heat.

  I built a small one for experimenting and it would reach 140 degrees in about 5 minutes at 300+ rpm.  I wasn't real impressed with it but driven with the wind could definately offset the normal heating costs with a large enough unit ( or several smaller ones)


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 08:13:16 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

RatOmeter

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2005, 08:37:20 AM »
Hydraulic fluid doesn't compress well.  If you want to pump something up to storage energy until it's at a usable level, try pneumatics.  Air is much more compressible.  Talk to Mike (mlz), he's done it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 08:37:20 AM by RatOmeter »

wooferhound

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2005, 10:48:50 AM »
> what product does every one buy

> for the sole purpose of throwing it away?


Garbage Bags

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 10:48:50 AM by wooferhound »

ghurd

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2005, 11:17:07 AM »
And why do you wash your bath towels?

They should still be clean if you took your shower the right way.

G-
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:17:07 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

nothing to lose

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2005, 11:33:27 AM »
I don't, I use grocery bags or wal-mart bags.

For the larger garbage bags, 20lb dog food/cat food bags work very well also :)


Why would I need to BUY trash bags?? To put the grocery, wal-mart, dog/cat food bags in them??  :)

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:33:27 AM by nothing to lose »

nothing to lose

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2005, 11:38:54 AM »
It's ok you said auto for us US guys, Car would not be correct either and would maybe confuse me as I might want to use one from a TRUCK :)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:38:54 AM by nothing to lose »

Dan M

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2005, 11:50:38 AM »
The word "efficiency" came up a lot in the responses.


As for efficiency, or "pumping losses" lets think about it.


Work is going in one end, less work is coming out the other end.  I think the only place it can go is heat (unless I'm missing something, somebody let me know).  This applies to losses in the pump, lines, elbows, etc.


If it's insulated well enough this can all (ok not ALL) make it into the house and circulate through a radiator.


As for storing pressure, don't.  Store the excess heat the same way you would in a passive solar system.  I know it takes a "butt-load" of oil to store a few hours worth of heat and there have been enough old postings about the various ways to do this.


***

This is kind of a sidebar, but the thing that really got me thinking about this is as follows:


I have a REALLY big PM motor that I'm planning on using as a wind genny.  What I thought was why not put a hydraulic pump on the tower, and run lines to a hydrostatic motor on the ground coupled to the genny.  My understanding is that these pump/motor systems can be around 80% efficient.


-Dan M

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:50:38 AM by Dan M »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2005, 02:52:04 PM »


Hi Dan


There seems to be a sort of convergence coming about or at least from what I have noticed for the last couple months, between electrical production for general lighting and general loads and the production of heat.


Where we deal with general lighting and loads the problem has been for the most part solved, a small wind generator and/or some solar panels do just fine. But if you are considering the issue of heat, this seems to be a totally different ball game. The power requirement to produce heat or cooling from an electrical based system is substantial.


What I do have a problem with is that a totally electrical system is more efficient then a thermodynamic fluid based system when thinking of heat/cooling. What costs in an electrical system is conversion; the losses are substantial in each stage reducing the overall efficiency. The production methods are out of range for most, and heat/cooling accounts for at least 30-50%  I would think of what is required for the average home.


 It is said that the average home requires about 50hp to produce the heat/cooling required to warm/cool it, and from this assumption, I base my facts that a small wind generator/solar system or even several would produce an average of between 2-10hp worth of total energy, leaving us in puzzlement as to why we cannot power or average home and have to depend on alternative resources to just produce heat/cooling


I am saying that there is a better way perhaps of doing it. Heat should be a separate issue that goes along with fluid dynamics, friction and thermals. Efficiency is always higher and the losses are less. I say this because moving hot/cold fluids around from one place to another really does not cost as much in terms of efficiency and work. (comparing an electrical system)


This is the reason why I brought up the idea of a friction based fluid based wind turbine pump system. To my knowledge it has not been done, but I could be wrong, there are a lot of people far more knowledgeable then I by about a billion times when it comes to fluid dynamics and it's cousins.


What I really want to stress is this point -"that in a fluid based system, the more turbulence and friction and pressure changes that occur within the system the more efficient it really seems to become", your working with mother nature and the laws of entropy, chaos, thermal gradients, friction etc... and this is the heart of producing a more efficient system and perhaps a better system for the production of heat/cooling rather then an electrical system. And is the reason for it's efficiency.


When I come to this message board and see the awesome potential of minds within, I also think that this is a system that is workable and should be explored to it's full potential as the electrical wind generators have. I believe strongly that this is the next stage and direction will be taking in the evolution of home power. Perhaps there is a better way.


I await your comments and suggestions. Thank you in advance!

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 02:52:04 PM by iFred »

dconn

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2005, 04:33:44 PM »
Hi iFred,


I'm currently living in a very old house (I really dont know how old it is - its poured concrete but there is lots of junk in the pouring - rocks, wood, etc).  I think this house was a number of out buildings and someone then made a yard between and then covered with a [fairly crap quality] flat timber roof.  It had no insulation at all.  A sad continuation to this was that I stuffed lots of rockwool (fibreglass type stuff) into the ceiling and then paneled below it - this insulated the house but then I had rat problems (lots of rain and they kept visiting) and I've now removed a lot of the insulation to find them & the destruction they left.


Anyway to move on - I'm making heat by burning lots of fuel - far far to much compared to a modern house.  I'm thinking now of building a new house and this means thinking about modern insulation and other heating stuff - like solar heating and maybe other things like waste air heat recovery (not sure / educated-enough about this).


But one thing that sounds good is heat exchangers based on long loops of pipe burried under the ground containing coolent and a heat pump making the heat for the house.  I have a friend that I think has spend over 10,000 euros on this kind of system (he also is using underfloor heating in a concrete slab that is surrounded by insulation - that must cost a lot more than a few radiators too I'd say).  I think he gets about 1:4 return (electricity for the pump vs. heat output) which doesn't sound all that good because I'd say a house needs quite a large amount of KW to heat it so a 1/4 of that amount is still quite sizable from a RE generation point of view.  And then you've got to wonder how much other fuels cost in the first place - say LPG (you have liquid gas in the US?) - I've heard the [bupane/propane] gas people here say that their price is 1/3 of the price of [grid] power per KWH which, if true, would appear to go against electric based heat pump systems.  But if there was a way to use wind/solar power to run a heat pump that would in turn heat the house and was doable then I'd be very interested.


I'm not sure about wind power for anything other than electricity - maybe twisting might be a more of a problem for pipes than for power cables?.


I'll keep an eye on this topic to see what happens as I'm intersted in house heating.


Thanks,


Derek

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 04:33:44 PM by dconn »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2005, 06:50:08 PM »


I finally came up with a name for this type of technology.


Hydrodynamic Friction Heated Wind Turbines:

using wind turbines to produce heat by friction of fluids and pumping or moving heated fluids for the purposes of home heating. A close cousin of the "frenette" heater as Ed suggested. Hydrodynamics is the study of fluids in motion and the movement of objects through a fluid.


has anyone thought of using a wind turbine as a pump to be used in replacement for a heat pump which would cost next to nothing really to operate?


As far as hydraulics and hydrodynamic wind turbines are concerned, there would be many advantages to having turbines running other machines, generators etc... doing work at a distance determined only by the length of tubing pulled.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 06:50:08 PM by iFred »

monte350c

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Re: Wind-To-Heat - friction heating system
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2005, 07:24:13 PM »
Hi Fred,


An interesting post. As you know here in the 'frozen north' we spend a lot more $$ on heat than electricity so I guess anything that can be developed to provide some heat is probably good. Especially if it can come from a clean resource like the wind or solar.


Driving an automotive aircon compressor would probably be really good - for cooling. You could compress the refrigerant into a buffer tank, and let it flow through the evaporator on demand. Heating would be tough though, since that type of system makes all the heat close to the compressor.


I agree with you - the more converting you do from one type of energy to another, the greater the losses. I found this article a while back. It's from a book on wind energy by a Dr. Gary Johnson. The whole book is a free download - if you want it I will find the link and post it.


I will try to make a small version of one of these in the next week or so to see if it works 'as advertised'.




















« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 07:24:13 PM by monte350c »

pexring

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2005, 10:54:04 PM »
I love this brainstorming sessions on creating heat.  


The one idea that really does work is the solar heating panels.  They are inexpensive to build and offer a quick return on investment.  I'm in my second winter of the two I built and when the sun shines, they consistently kick out temps of 100-140F degrees.  Of course, for them to work you need sun -- which during the winter limits you to only a few hours a day on sunny days.  


I too have experimented with the frenette tin-can heater with little success.  But if there was an oil or some other substance that would create heat more easily than say motor oil (which is what I used in my experient), then for sure the frenette heater would work.  I never took chemistry, but I keep thinking that there should be a chemical that would create heat by simply shaking it.  If so, then a version of the frenette heater would be in everyone's home today.  


Mark  

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 10:54:04 PM by pexring »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat - friction heating system
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2005, 11:37:52 PM »
monte350c, I would like to see the rest of this! When you get the chance (no rush K) send me a copy via email or post it on the board for others as well. Thats as interesting one. Thanks for the share!

« Last Edit: January 08, 2005, 11:37:52 PM by iFred »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2005, 12:10:27 AM »


Brain stormin....


should be a chemical that would create heat by simply shaking it... WOW! Thats a neat thought! Or a device that is hand held that produces heat by shaking.. Sort of like a linear version of the frenette heater, rather then rotational, using a sliding mechanism and/or a mass, or perhaps a magnetic fluid --->>


Make Your Own Magnetic Fluid!! This idea came from a good friend of mine (Bryan)

-> oil and photocopier toner- by the way this is very cool stuff- mix some together and play with a magnet in a jar!!! Unreal effects. Slowly add oil to a little bit of toner to get the right mix, mix well in a small jar. Play!!


Also I would like to add friction by magnetic constriction and movement. Perhaps this could be also used.


Neat Links...


Frenette Heater patents

http://www.rexresearch.com/frenette/frenette.htm


Hydrodynamic heating by cavitation (this is a hot link!)

http://www.g-techsystems.co.uk/gtech2/home.htm


Magnetohydrodynamic heating & Magnetic Fluids? ummmm

http://www.legi.hmg.inpg.fr/conf_gb/text_conf.html

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 12:10:27 AM by iFred »

windstuffnow

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2005, 07:52:26 AM »
  Something that occurs naturally... Hay and moisture in a constricted area.  You've heard of people putting back hay that hadn't completely dried... and a short time later their barn burns down...  Seems like to me there would be a way to harness this reaction in a controlled environment.  The stuff gets quite hot before igniting.  I really don't understand the process and haven't experimented with the idea but the thought of renewable heat energy it tends to stick in my mind...


Anyone have a better explanation of this reaction?


Have Fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 07:52:26 AM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed

pexring

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2005, 12:36:23 PM »
I once asked my Dad, an old-time farmer, what reaction happens inside a haystack or haybale that causes it to heat-up and burst into flames if there's enough moisture present.  He didn't really know.  The same combustion problem can also happen with wet grain in a storage bin.  I do know the reaction isn't overnight, but takes several days or weeks to happen.  


Mark

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 12:36:23 PM by pexring »

monte350c

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2005, 03:11:44 PM »
Hi Ed,


My grandfather had a farm and was always concerned about this. I think it might be the start of the composting cycle where small organisms combine carbon and nitrogen to make methane and compost. You can tell if a compost pile is working when it heats up.


There's a farm in Alberta that uses "poo - power" to make 1 megawatt of electricity...


http://www.jpcs.on.ca/biodiversity/ghg/project_reports/ab-4.html


Ted.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 03:11:44 PM by monte350c »

monte350c

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Re: Wind-To-Heat - friction heating system
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2005, 03:16:27 PM »
Hi Fred,


The rest of the book can be downloaded free here:


http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/


It's a great read, and you can just skim for info. But if you need it contains all the formulas etc. to do some simulation on your own.


I read it cover to cover after downloading - interesting!


Ted.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 03:16:27 PM by monte350c »

iFred

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2005, 03:53:50 PM »
Holy crap, and I mean that most sincerly. That is cool. THis is the first time I heard of this. So as the hay in a barn begins to bio-degrade, it produces some prime chemicals in the process that can then be used to produce heat?? WOW, why not really find out what is going on and seperate, then when you need some heat, mix and presto.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 03:53:50 PM by iFred »

monte350c

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2005, 04:25:47 PM »
There's something happening, as they say, down on the farm.


Here is a study done by Ridgetown Agricultural College on the processing of manure into power:


http://www.ridgetownc.on.ca/research/documents/morris_anaerobdig01.PDF


If that's from a few cows, imagine what you could do with the poo from a city like Toronto... could be a few megawatts being flushed down the toilet every day!


Ted.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 04:25:47 PM by monte350c »

windstuffnow

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Re: Wind-To-Heat
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2005, 04:29:35 PM »
  A methane plant on a small scale is quite easy to put together with simple parts. I built one to experiment with back in the 80's and it worked quite well although only good for small production.   Basically it was a large tank with a sealed door sitting in the sun.  A small line comming out of the top went to a "can in a can" arrangement and the tube went into the bottom.  Almost like the plunging piston stirling.  The bottom can is filled with water the top can is upside down in the water.  All the air is removed and as the slurry produces gas it raises the can.  There is another line from the top can to feed an engine, gas stove, heater or whatever.  I fed the slurry all the grass cuttings, doggy do, anything organic works.  Extreemly simple and it works.  Winter production is pretty much a dead issue because the slurry has to maintain at least 70 degrees to produce.

  To bad there isn't a direct way to take the methane and convert it to electric instead of running it through an inefficient engine.


So many ways to accomplish a given task...


Have fun

Windstuff Ed

« Last Edit: January 09, 2005, 04:29:35 PM by windstuffnow »
Windstuff Ed