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Single Rotor not generating enough voltage


By brokengun, Section Wind
Posted on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:46:00 AM MST
Single Rotor not generating enough voltage

I'm in the process of getting a single rotor mill up and generating. I am using 1X2#.5 inch rectangular magnets on my rotor and I'm using a 24 volt heavy duty stator coil from Otherpower. I've been running some electrical tests just on my work bench, spinning the generator up with my hands and I can only get about 8-9 volts MAX, granted I'm only trying to get 12v out of it because it's a single rotor. I hooked it up to an inverter and I'm able to get enough voltage to turn on a CFL for a few seconds. I've adjusted the spacing between the stator and the magnet rotor until it's practically hitting the stator, so I don't think it's an issue of spacing.

My question is, what else can I modify to get more voltage out of my coils? Also, is there a significant increase in performance between the rectangular and circular magnets?

I believe the polarities on my magnet rotor are setup correctly. I'm using a twelve inch rotor and the magnets come out to the edge of it, just for reference.

Thanks

Tony

Single Rotor not generating enough voltage | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by StefanWis (stefan.wiswedel@gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 12:04:05 AM MST
(User Info)

I am sure that someone with FAR FAR more experience than me will answer soon but here goes my 2c worth. Firstly, a picture ALWAYS helps :) Secondly, is your rotor magnetic (steel) and do you have a 2nd rotor (without magnets) spinning on the other side of the stator? From your description, it doesn't seem like you have a 2nd rotor. If possible, attach a 2nd steel rotor because even if it doesn't have magnets on it, it still helps to complete the magnetic circuit and maximise your flux.

Other than that, I cannot think of much off of the top of my head as most things would involve altering your coils ...



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by boB on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 12:13:51 AM MST
(User Info) http://bob.gudgel.org


You're measuring AC or DC ?  Can you try spinning it with a drill motor or something ?
I would ~think~ that it wouldn't spin at high enough RPM by hand.  It's lighting a light for a moment so you got some current at least with the smallish voltage.

boB




Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:14:00 AM MST
(User Info)

You don't' give much in the way of details. I assume from your comments that the stator was intended for 2" diameter round magnets. The flux for the rectangular ones will be way below the round ones and also they will not be placed or shaped ideally.

With a single rotor uaing the same magnets you will at best only see half the voltage at a given speed. This is not going to matter. By using only half the magnets you will only be able to load to about 1/4 the power so you must accept that you will need a smaller prop. This will run faster so your 8v will be more than enough to reach 12v with the higher speed.

If you are expecting to keep the original prop size ( 10ft?) with half the number of smaller magnets then you are dreaming, if this was possible who would use more magnets.

If you want a small machine and don't want to build a stator this is a perfectly viable approach but you will have to test your alterantor and work out the size of prop that it will take. My guess 6ft comfortable ( 7ft pushing things).

Flux



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Todd a on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 03:40:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Spinning it by hand?  Well likely you are only doing something like 50RPM and you need to get much faster.  Likely you will need 100RPM or more to get into that voltage range...  200RPM would give you even better results.  I do not think the second steel plate is going to make much difference.  It might effect the flux by a tiny bit, but without the second set of magnets you will likely get a lot less amps... and watts.  Also remember that an open voltage is going to be a bit higher than a voltage under load.  It is also harder to spin.



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 02:25:50 AM MST
(User Info)

We have no real idea what the original poster was trying to achieve so this is all speculation but I think the spinning plate with no magnets is worth doing for someone who wants to build a smaller machine then the original dual rotor was intended for.

Typically the flux density in the gap of the original dual rotor would be in the region of 600mT. If you remove one rotor then the average flux linking the same stator will be something like 300mT and you will measure about half volts. The flux close to the magnets will be nearly that of the dual rotor but that at the far side of the stator will be very low indeed and the far half of the stator will contribute more resistance than volts. For a single rotor you would probably be better starting with a thinner stator, but the flux distribution will be poor.

If you replace the second magnet rotor with a spinning disc then there will be far more incentive for the flux to cross the air gap and not fringe between magnets on the same disc. Obviously you can't hope to have as high a flux density as with the dual magnet rotor unless you reduce the air gap and that will reduce your winding space ( impossible in this case with a bought in stator). I would expect the average flux density in the same gap as the dual rotor to be about 450mT. When you consider that output power is roughly proportional to the square of the flux then it is obvious that the second disc gives a substantial improvement over a single rotor with no return path.

The big question with starting with a stator intended for another purpose is whether you can somehow get a good match with your prop at a standard voltage.

With single rotor I think you will be forced to use the 24v stator at 12v and accept quite a low power out and it will not take a very big prop.

With the spinning disc I would expect the thing to still work at 24v but with a smaller faster prop bringing the volts back up with the lower flux.

If you are prepared to accept a faster prop with a bit more noise then I suspect you could get away with 8ft at tsr7. The stator will handle the same maximum current of the original 10ft machine, so your peak power will not drop but you will need more wind to get it. An 8ft prop will do far better in light winds than the size of prop needed to get it running at 12v without the spinning disc. At 12v your peak power is reduced to half for the same stator heating so you loose out all ways.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:43:14 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

How Big is your Battery ?

W o o f -={(



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 10:52:50 PM MST
(User Info)

Nice work you have done there, it's a pity you didn't ask questions earlier before you got too far down the road.

I have absolutely no doubt that it will work at 12v with the 9' 6" prop but I seriously doubt that you will be able to furl it at a safe speed unless you depart drastically from the normal tail angles and weights.

The torque needed to start these ironless machines is negligible compared with motor conversions and dc motors. There is no need for a large prop for that.

Small props are faster for the same tsr ( speed of tip relative to wind speed). It's just not only speed, with only one magnet rotor you are reducing the alternator power and it will not load the prop sufficiently in high winds and the thing will run away and become noisy if not dangerous.

A fixed solid steel disc is useless, you could revert back to the Dan's original idea of a laminated fixed disc in a groove in your plywood but it will probably cost you more in decent silicon iron strip than you saved in magnets. You can use mild steel sheet or other crap such as crate banding strip and it will work fairly well in high winds but it will be slow to start and the low wind results will be poor at the best.

Even then I think you are pushing your luck with only half the magnets for a nearly 10ft prop.

It's easy to see where you got confused, there is so much discussion of various type of machine here and often the starting problem comes up with other designs and generally I think few people have any real concept of needing to match the prop speed and power output to the load, to most people volts seem to be everything.

Flux



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by brokengun on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 09:36:52 AM MST
(User Info)

I haven't tested my furling system, but my tail area and boom were both setup with the intention of a 9.5 ft. prop diameter. The tail is at a 45 degree off center and a 20 degree tip back. I matched the angles according to the designs I read. I'm fairly certain that there were for a 10 foot diameter turbine too.

I agree when you say people don't know how to match their props to their generators. Hugh Piggot's Windpower Workshop talks about it... but even after reading it... I didn't quite understand exactly what he was getting at. I guess it just takes some experience and experimentation to understand what he and other do it yourself wind guys are talking about.

Switching the blades to a smaller diameter isn't a huge deal, it's another $40 and will probably be worth it, if what you guys are saying is correct. I'm just wondering if circular magnets will make a huge difference or the smaller prop will be all I need.

Also, if I do switch out my blades, will my furling system still work for the smaller diameter turbine... I based it on the ratios of the 9.5 foot turbine, so it will be too big but does that necessarily mean it won't work....

Thanks for all your help, I'm really enjoying this project and learning a lot.

[ Parent ]



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 10:12:01 AM MST
(User Info)

The big round magnets will be a slight improvement but you are not using your magnets effectively and to go to more expensive ones seems a doubtful move, you will still need the smaller prop.

Furling ? I really can't give you much reassurance with everything messed up. The larger than necessary offset will certainly make it furl earlier than the correct offset would for the smaller prop but the thrust is going to be lower from the smaller prop anyway. You have a tail bigger and heavier than desirable for the small prop.

My guess is that you need to reduce tail size, boom length and accept that it will run at a fair angle to the wind. The saving factor is that you can keep the current rating of the 10ft machine but if you degrade it to 12v then you have half the power capability before you need to furl.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by brokengun on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 04:21:43 PM MST
(User Info)

I did actually make the tail quite light weight even for a 10 ft. machine. I think I might be close to OK. I might test it or just move the tail piece ahead a bit on the boom. I wish there was an easy way to tell how many RPMs I've been testing this alternator at. I know I can measure it by looking at the frequency of the AC current I've generated but I'm without my O-scope right now. I suppose I could just try to get a friend with a stopwatch so we can get a ballpark estimate.

The more I'm reading about these duel rotor designs, the more I want to try one. I've pretty much promised myself that I won't do it on this machine. However I'm going to have some spare parts after this one is done and another $20 volvo strut from the junkyard is well worth the cost. I didn't realize there is so much to making some magnets spin around some stator coils... I wish I had a working windmill today, it sure was a gusty one.

[ Parent ]



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by waterleat (waterleat2000 at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 03:01:23 PM MST
(User Info)

I am building a single rotor machine and have now realized that I should have gone for the dual rotor due to the increased flux in having two rotors.
   Yet I will continue as I am sure that:
      I can learn from the construction methods.
      Not yet cast stator or put on the magnets on disc
      blades carved 1.4m dia
      Design based on the Piggot 4ft machine

Round magnets or rectangular why do you say round are better?

[ Parent ]



Re: Single Rotor not generating enough voltage (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by brokengun on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 01:01:57 PM MST
(User Info)

I've heard the flux is just better. I'm not an expert on magnets or stator design but it just seems to jive a bit better with the way the stator coils are setup. The difference is fairly noticeable I guess, or people wouldn't be choosing them over rectangular.

[ Parent ]


Single Rotor not generating enough voltage | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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