Author Topic: 24v or 48v  (Read 18512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
24v or 48v
« on: May 24, 2010, 07:27:09 AM »
Hello

I am from South Australia.  I am new to all this but have bought a property and will need remote power.

I plan on using wind and solar to charge a battery bank with a generator as backup.

My questions are this.

Which one is better? 24v or 48v ??

what are the pros and cons of each ?

regards
Allan 

harley1782000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • I thought so too.....
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 08:03:03 AM »
I had ask that question before.  48 volt is better.  More voltage, smaller the wire and you can get more distance.  More voltage the longer it will last.  Here is a question I had ask about the what to use.

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,135850.0.html
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 08:06:11 AM by harley1782000 »

freejuice

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 03:12:22 PM »
Hi Allen,
 I'm a rookie myself, but as the fellow said, 48V is better, you can run smaller gage wire etc. However the type of inverter can really be costly....if you go with... say an Outback inverter the cost wil lbe about the same, if you use 24volt or 48 volt however if you plan on using the kung-fu type of inverters, then the 24v might be cheaper.
 I discoverd that 48v inverters are expensive...but if you are serious about this, then it might be the best way from the get-go.
 You have less losses with a 48 volt system over a 24 and  its much, much better than a 12v system
 If I had to make long wire runs, that would also push my decision more towards a 48v system.
 All the best,
 Gavin

wpowokal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Country: au
  • Far North Queensland (FNQ) Australia
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 07:14:38 PM »
Google RAPS (remote area power supply) if you meet the criteria the government will pay half. Selectronics make 48V inverters with real surge capabilities, you would have to enlighten us on projected load to give a, informed answer.

allan
A gentleman is man who can disagree without being disagreeable.

swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 07:17:18 PM »
But what is easier to charge ?

do my turbines need to spin faster ? to charge 48v ?

or will they produce the same wether they are 12, 24 or 48v ?

do i then need to buy 48v turbines?

i was thinking of buying a Latronics inverter as they are a Australian product

David HK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
  • Country: hk
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 08:10:41 PM »
As a rule of thumb the following words are worth remembering:-

The more volts you've got, the easier it is to play with the electricity.

Try and do some Internet research to find what equipment you can buy easily that works directly from 48 Volts DC. I doubt if you will find that much. Then search for what can operate at 24 volts and you find quite a lot.

Do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions. There are plenty of people in this forum who can help you.

David in HK

frackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
  • Country: nz
  • Picard spits "Hello"
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 10:15:51 PM »
But what is easier to charge ?

do my turbines need to spin faster ? to charge 48v ?

or will they produce the same wether they are 12, 24 or 48v ?

do i then need to buy 48v turbines?

i was thinking of buying a Latronics inverter as they are a Australian product

Ease of charging makes no difference

The turbine would be designed for system voltage so irrelevant

Power is measured in watts so the voltage has nothing to do with it other than the higher the voltage the lower the current for the same watts which means you can use thinner cables.

12 and 24 volt inverters are generally much cheaper than 48v since they are designed for caravans, cars and trucks so they come out of China in the 100,000's. 48v will generally be a 'professional' product so will likely be more resilient to abuse (but you'll pay for it!!).

Mostly comes down to how much power you'll think you need. If you average 1kw over the day I expect your peaks will be at least 5 times that so size to double that again - i.e. 10kw inverter.
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

dnix71

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 10:20:42 PM »
What do you need to run? What is critical? Do you have to pump water from a well? Do you need uninterrupted refrigeration?

http://www.powerstream.com/dc48.htm  This will give you 30 amps at 12v from 48vdc. Not cheap, but completely sealed, no maintenance.

There are lots of 12v appliances for off road/off grid, but little at 24 or 48.

Making and storing at 48v is certainly more efficient.

swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 01:23:07 AM »
I will have to run everything from the storage. i dont have the option of mains power.

I will want to run fridge, freezer etc all day and night. as well as tv , computers, lights, washing machine etc.

So let me get this straight if i buy a 24v windturbine it can still charge a 48v battery bank ? 

or must it be a 48v turbine?

like i said i have purchase nothing yet but i am about to order my batteries from a local bloke.

i am currently looking at buying either 12 or 24 batteries depending on 24 or 48v system..
Batteries are sealed lead acid 2v 3000ah batteries.

So basically i need to know which system will give me the best most reliable supply of power able to run most things.

Power will be invertered to 240v mains which is standard here in Australia.

I hope to run 2-3 wind turbines to make most of the power with solar panels and a back up petrol/deisel generator to top them up .


David HK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
  • Country: hk
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 03:40:24 AM »
The way your presenting your needs is not helpful.

First of all why don't you do this:- Take a pen and paper and write down the voltage and Wattage of every single item in every room of your house including any out houses. Then place all the data on an Excel file for reference.

Next step are you planning to replace anything that is currently 240 AC volts with anything at 24 or 48 Volts DC?

Are you in a good wind area? If so where will you put the turbine and what will be the distance from the battery banks.

Have you thought about designing the system? Wiring circuits, fuses, emergency battery disconnection.

How about a maintenance kit for the batteries - Multi meter, Hydrometer, rubber gloves, eye protection, supply of electrolyte and so on.

What about a dump load for burning off excess power that you cannot use if the batteries are full?

Heating water - how do you do that at the moment?

You mention  photo voltaic panels - what are your thoughts on this aspect? Will they be fixed in azimuth, or, sun tracking through azimuth - East to West?

What happens if the turbine fails?

Its no use asking people on this web site to recommend 24 or 48 volts DC because none of us can guess through all the details you have not mentioned.

Slow down  - don't rush into a disaster.

David in HK






swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 07:37:18 AM »
David,
At this time i have no plans to change any of my appliances but will look into it when we move to the block.
I have 105 acres of land so space for wind turbines is not a problem .
Our wind is not as good as you get but we do get wind here and can run small turbines. Others around the area are and are charging their battery banks. our average wind speed is 5.26m/s
I have a 100ft x 30ft shed on the property which we will be lining out an area which is 20ft x 30ft as a  living quarters until we build our home.
Next to the shed about 15ft from it i plan on putting a 20ft shipping container which will be my power plant area. I will have the inverter, dump loads, batteries and generator in there. (vented etc)
This will ensure no one can touch anything they shouldn't. I will be placing the turbines near that and the solar on the shed roof. I imagine the turbines will be within 15 – 20ft of the battery bank
I will be using sealed lead acid batteries so i didn't think i would need “, Hydrometer, rubber gloves, eye protection, supply of electrolyte and so on”

As far as heating water ? i thought we would go solar when we live there and build the house. For now for the temp quarters we will use bottles gas and instant hot water heater.
I would like to install solar panels as well. Best to have 50/50 cant rely of just wind or just solar.
Here in South Australia we face the fixed solar panels to the north. I don't think i could afford a system that tracks the sun so fixe it will be .

“What happens if the turbine fails?”
Do you mean explodes to pieces or just stops working.  If it stops working i will have back up petrol/diesel generator which i already mentioned. As far as breaking to pieces i have no idea ! i would hope it would not get that windy here and that they would be of strong construction.

I am not rushing into this there is no hurry at this time. I am still getting the floor of the shed cemented. I obviously would love to start getting organised for the power but am willing to seek advice hence the reason i am asking questions.
Obviously getting power up and running will help with other projects out there.
I appreciate all input provided.

wpowokal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Country: au
  • Far North Queensland (FNQ) Australia
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 08:19:13 AM »
If you plan to line part of your shed fill the gaps between the concrete floor and the tin, stops mice getting in and eating through your lining, preferably use a sloppy cement mix.

allan
A gentleman is man who can disagree without being disagreeable.

swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 08:41:21 AM »
There should be no gaps between the cement and the iron? th efloor is getting poured in the shed. the shed is already built so when poured will fill gaps.

wpowokal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Country: au
  • Far North Queensland (FNQ) Australia
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 07:54:03 PM »
You seem to doing things right, we have just moved into a new house and have a 48v system see http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,141273.0.html, after having lived in a shed for 8 years, that system is 24v with 3Kw inverters (2).

Where in SA do you live? I'm way way west of you.

If you can stick with all OZ equipment as its made for our conditions, 3000a/h of batteries is a lot if you go 24v you will have around 75 Kw's of storage double that if you go 48V, one can have a battery bank that is too large, and from my experience a 48 volt bank of 3000ah batteries is too large. You will probably never get to use more than the top 8-10%, and this while being "good" for battery longevity means your charging efficiency is going to be around 45% at best, see http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/BattIntro.htm 4th item.

What brand of batteries are you going for?

Have you looked into RAPS?

allan
A gentleman is man who can disagree without being disagreeable.

swiftden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 04:34:15 AM »
wpowokal

the batteries are coming from a local guy in Murray Bridge. He is importing them himself. I will try and find out what the brand is.
I know he is getting them in for him self as well. he recommended that i go 48v i just wanted more advice.

I can get the 3000ah batteries for just over a thousand dollars each . They are sealed lead acid. Thats all i know about them at this time.

Or i can get 24 of these 1870ah gel batteries for $1085 each or if i get 12 of them they will cost me $1144 each delivered to Murray Bridge
 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400073161255&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:AU:1123

having been there done that if this is such a large bank would i be able to run almost anything?  eg air conditioner in extreme heat?

from your experience am i going to be able to charge that size bank?

which system of yours is better having had both ? i dont want to go 24 and find i need more power . i want to establish it once to power the shed and the house and would love to not run out to often if i can help it .

do you have a land line i could call you on ? if so can you email or pm it to me ?

Also the RAPS Rebates have closed in all states apart from WA and i think they are about to close from what i have read if they have not already

regards Allan

« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 04:36:37 AM by swiftden »

wpowokal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Country: au
  • Far North Queensland (FNQ) Australia
Re: 24v or 48v
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 08:34:21 AM »
Allan the principal difference between 24 and 48V is the batteries ability to supply the current under a heavy load without the voltage dipping too far, current is halved for 48V. If you are planning big loads or starting big loads ie air compressor large angle grinder well pump etc then 48V has advantages and 300A/h will cope with most everything.

I run my fruit packing shed on 24V, with two 3Kw inverters one is dedicated to the cool room in the summer for about 6-8 weeks the other runs the processing equipment and domestic requirements, the battery bank is large second hand batteries now 21 years old. If I did it again I would go 48V but I started with an old 32V Dunlight  mill so went 24V

Generally the advice is to size your system to give 3 days autonomy without dropping below 50% charge, now that's all very well but one needs to be able to replace all this expended energy once the sun shines or wind blows again and this large battery bank is aging from day one. There is no one solution for all situations my personal preference is a bank that will see me through 2 days, I prefer to start the generator if necessary( you are probably going to have to anyway) I believe it is more cost effective than a huge battery bank aging daily used or not, my house bank is 1320 Ah 48 volt, adequate but I doubt it could sustain the full capacity of the inverter 6Kw/ 18Kw surge for long.

A large bank will, within your inverters capability allow you to run an AC occasionally but one still has to replace this expended energy, Ok battery power O/n run the generator during the day, we did that occasionally in the shed.

Basically with a large battery bank that does not go much below 10% discharge you will need 2Kw for every 1Kw the batteries absorb, this is a little variable, I have 4X24v banks of 660Ah batteries surviving at the packing shed, if load is needed and recharge is limited I reduce to 2-3 In service to aid the recharge, other wise I leave all 4 I/S as I have no charge regulation and 4 banks can absorb all incoming from solar and wind without the voltage going above 32V.

Will you be able to recharge a 3000Ah bank, yes, how efficiently depends on how much incoming you have, down Murry Bridge way wind should be a good option as you have stated others are surviving on wind. I believe solar is the backbone of a Re system my wind would be lucky to average 15% of my use from 3 mills but then there are days when it is more than enough even without the sun. Wind is like women most of the time there is not enough then there is too much.

Raps has closed in WA also I was not aware of that, I guess Ruddy spent all the dollars on ceiling insulation to electrocute tradies, but contact a dealer I strongly suspect it will restart when a new allocation of funds is made, July 1 is coming (election year).  Our house system cost $75,000 of which the government paid half.

I have looked at your battery link, and can not comment I guess they are Chinese, cost is up there with the major brands, look at sites like Solar on line etc. Only you know what loads you will be running, have you lived off grid before? It's a struggle to economizes if there is a female in the house, if they are $#|+ty with you the first thing they do is use lots of power because they know you care about it. I still try but no too hard, I just start the generator or let the inverter start it, a few gallons of diesel is less confrontational and a tax deduction to boot. 

I have PM'ed you me contact details.

allan
A gentleman is man who can disagree without being disagreeable.