Author Topic: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot  (Read 11747 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« on: May 21, 2007, 03:49:24 AM »
After months of work, It has finely been completed. In my title, I mentioned that it is a 26, 24, and now 22 foot blade dia mill. Its kind of a joke cause I started out wanted it to be 26 foot, but after posting what my plans were, Flux and DanB told me that they were too big and that I should make them maybe 22 or even 20 foot in order to beable to keep control without over speeding, expecialy being I was not planing on a furling tail. Anyway, I decided to make them 24' but now that I have it up, I found out quickly in a 10 mile an hour wind that I needed to cut them down, so up the tower I went, and now they are 22' dia. Guess I should have listened.Ha.


Im going to keep this post on only the tower, and will do the turbine in another post to keep it from being to long, and will have a chance to do more testing.


The first picture is of the winch I purchased on e-bay very cheep, I added a gear reducer of 18 to one, and is electric motor operated with a 1/4 horse motor. I added a reversing switch. It is also geared even lower with the chain and sprockets from the gear reducer to the winch. The winch is rated at two ton, and has about 150 foot of 5/16 cable on the spool. It is set up double line to a pully on the top of the gin pole.


                         

another picture of the winch showing the end of the gin 50 foot gin pole

This picture is of the guys that are conected to the gin pole and the tower, that follow the movement when the tower is raised or lowered. I used heavy duty springs to keep constant tenshion on the guys. I found it to work very well.I found the springs at a local junk yard. paid 17 dollars for all 4 of them.

This shows a 20 foot length of 3 inch pipe I used at a 45 degree between the tower and the gin pole for added support.----------------------------------------------

I used a 3&1/2 inch pipe inside the 4 inch tower and gin pole sections to make a more secure weld joint.

The first time I raised it, I was scared to death, the winch is so slow it took 2 hours to get it up, of course I am married to one of those women who dont want any trees cut down, so I have to deal with watching my guy lines so they dont get tangled in the branches. I think using 4 inch pipe with a 500 lb turbine is a little underrated, but I got the pipe for scrap price at 25 cents a lb. The only problem I see is the 12 foot at the top that is unguyed, will not cut it. I need to bring it back down, and beef that section up.


All comments welcome, including constructive critisism!!

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 03:49:24 AM by (unknown) »

Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Country: 00
    • DCB Energy Systems
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2007, 10:49:08 PM »
Harrie,

  I have an 85' Rohn lattice tower I converted to tilt up with a 52' ginpole and worm drive winch. I power the winch with my right angle drill at about 300 rpm with winch reduction I think it is 40:1 and up and back cable with pulley on the ginpole like yours besides. Takes about 12-15 minutes to raise. I also use an added bracket between the ginpole and tower such as yours, not quite as long and is I think 2 1/2" square 1/4" steel stock tubing. I see 2 things that I will mention that may not concern you but you asked for feedback so as a builder and not just talker I'll mention. I would not use springs in the guy lines, I know this may be convenient to raise and lower this alone but for safety I would think it best to have spotters at the anchors adjusting turnbuckles direct between cable and anchors (no springs). Much more secure when raised to the max. and then properly adjusted also. The second observation is the length of your inner pipe sleeve for your connecting weld joint of pipe sections. Again, for safety I think it would be much stronger with longer inner pipe sections at these joints. 500 lbs. is nothing to sneeze at up 80' on a 4" pipe. Just passing thoughts. Looks great, post photos when you get the mill up there. My new 18' is on my 10' test tower now and I'll do the same.  Dave B.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 10:49:08 PM by Dave B »
DCB Energy Systems
http://dcbenergy.com/

jmk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 603
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 12:44:22 AM »
 I need a winch like that. What is it called and where can I get one? I looked on e-bay but only found other type. When I do look in e-bay what do I call it?  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:44:22 AM by jmk »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 04:43:22 AM »
Hi Dave, Thanks for the comment. I disagree on the springs, I would reccomend them to anyone. If you look close, you will see safty cables inside the springs, that would not allow them to move over one inch.When I set the anchors, I made sure they were the same elevation, and exactly parallel with the pivot pin!, so they really dont streach at all. The do need to be very heavy tho.


Also, I disagree on the length of the the sleeve, It serves no purpose other than makeing the tower weight more to use longer pieces.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 04:43:22 AM by harrie »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 04:49:05 AM »
All I can say, is just keep searching under "Cable Winches" on E-Bay, If you buy one of those from the factory, your looking at about 2 to 3 thousand dollars, I bought it for 49 dollars. I did however have to make a 10 tooth drive gear for it, I tried to buy one from the company that makes them, and they wanted 150.00 just for that.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 04:49:05 AM by harrie »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 06:46:55 AM »
Nicley done Harrie and thank you for sharing the project!


I know we all have our own ideas and disagree on certain things so take my opinions for what they're worth.


Like DaveB - I really don't like the springs.  I expect they are the weak link in your guy wires, even with safety cables I don't care for the idea.  I wonder if you have an idea how much they expand given a certain amount of force.  In any event - if one breaks (and springs do break) it could be a disaster.  These are my thoughts and perhaps I'm wrong about this... but I think a tilt up tower should be such that the cables are properly tensioned when it's erected, and they should slack slightly on the way down.  This is achieved by putting the side anchors slightly forward of the pivot.  When I built my tower I tried to figure out the forces involved and tried to give a good safety factor on everything (except maybe the pipe I used which I am still unsure about).  The 3/8" cable on mine breaks around 14000 pounds - the turnbuckles I used break around 10,000 (according to what I've read anyhow) - so there is my weak spot.  Your weak spot is the spring (by a lot I expect) or the safety cable which would make me nervous.  A tower this big/heavy really needs to be properly adjusted and perfectly plumb - if something allows it to get a bit off then forces get strange and I imagine it could crush.  I may just be paranoid - I've done pretty crazy stuff before and gotten away with it for a while.  


I also agree with you - the 4" pipe is pretty light for such a big machine.  It may work out if you keep it in severe stall.  Again - my opinion and you're doing things differently - but I don't understand why you want to build such a large machine without a furling system.  I think if it runs away for any reason you'll be in lots of trouble.  Keeping it in severe stall and not taking advantage of medium  - high winds at all may allow you to get away with this, the drawback is that it must always work and be under load or else.  The other drawback is you're missing out on lots of power you could otherwise have I think.  I can see the temptation here for sure getting the scrap pipe so cheap...  


The winch is very nice - rated at 2000 pounds I doubt you have lots of safety factor.  So long as nothing starts bouncing or vibrating on the way up I expect it should be fine.  If for any reason the tower bounces on the way up then the forces involved must go way up.


I forget the voltage of your system...  the plug at the bottom looks pretty small for such a large machine though.  I've seen similar plugs melt on 10' dia 12V machines up here.


Some of your cable clamps are on backwards (never saddle a dead horse)


Those are my comments for what they are worth - I'm surely no expert and continue to do lots of crazy stuff all the time! ;-)


Overall it's pretty nicely done and take my comments for what they're worth

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 06:46:55 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 06:53:35 AM »
I wonder if you would talk about your anchors a bit?

I know one fellow recently who had quite a tall tower - his anchors were 1 yard of concrete (approx) near the surface of fairly wet soft soil.  The tower had a 12' machine on top - although lots of other stuff was mounted up there so the wind load might have been comperable to a much larger machine.  In high winds one day - one of the anchors got dragged a ways through the soil (mud?) - and the tower came down.  (that tower was over 150')  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 06:53:35 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 06:59:13 AM »
One last comment I guess...

Have you lowered it yet?  I wonder how that geared winch deals with that.  I'm always afraid to use anything other than a worm gear winch for this sort of thing - seems like a gear winch like yours might not hold the load on the way down but I don't really know.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 06:59:13 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

CreativePower

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 09:31:09 AM »
Hi Harrie,


I would have to agree with Dave on the comment about the sleeve - though you are right it does add weight to the whole sum but there is a reason for the extended sleeve - the weld that is used currently to hold it together may work for raising and lowering but when there is wind load on the pole it will bend and flex right at that point. Even under normal wind load the vibrations that will be sent through the whole post will crack the weld if there isn't enough support (at least 3-4 feet above and below the weld point). With a snug inner sleeve it will stop the flexing (or at least reduce it) - if you have kids you will seriously reconsider this design. I want to know what the springs are for - I don't quite understand their purpose - it is my understanding guy wires are suppose to have solid anchoring with no give at all and at least 1/3 - 50% the tension of the anticipated load on the whole rig applied to each guy wire - perhaps I have been misinformed, any clarification would be appreciated

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 09:31:09 AM by CreativePower »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2007, 10:38:23 AM »
"I want to know what the springs are for - I don't quite understand their purpose - it is my understanding guy wires are suppose to have solid anchoring with no give at all and at least 1/3 - 50% the tension of the anticipated load on the whole rig applied to each guy wire - perhaps I have been misinformed, any clarification would be appreciated"


I think most of the horizontal load on the tower has to be held by the top guy wires.  For this reason I think it might make sense (economically) to use heavier guy wire at the top.  The lower guy wires are there to keep the tower from bending under under all the weight.  If you're worried about equalizing the load across the guy wires/keeping fairly even tension I would use a more conventional 'equalizer' at the anchors - but not a spring.  Something like you see on the right side of the picture below:




« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 10:38:23 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2007, 11:11:03 AM »
Dan,


In your drawing, why would the guy wires be pulling at 90 degrees to the anchor's direction?  The anchor on the left seems crooked, but the one on the right seems correct.


I have thought about planting my anchors vertically in the soil, and supporting them with a buried block or plate to keep them from bending over.  But I was still worried about the neck bending over - loosening away the guy wire.  

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 11:11:03 AM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2007, 11:19:04 AM »
Yes, I agree... it's not my drawing - one I found though that shows how guy wire equalizers normally work.  the picture on the left is a bit bothersome to me as well.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 11:19:04 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

Mary B

  • Administrator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2007, 11:42:24 AM »
Guy wire anchors should always be in line with the wires. Angled can bend and loosen the guys. This is a link to a pdf of how they should look. http://www.antennasystems.com/PDFs/ROHN/hardware_accessories/HA-77.pdf

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 11:42:24 AM by MaryAlana »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2007, 11:57:23 AM »
Hi Dan, and thanks for all the comments. I still disagree on the springs, Remember, they are very heavy duty. They keep the 5/16 cable so tight you can play a tune on them. Also the safty cable that runs thru the spring goes from the anchor to the cable, bypassing the spring and the turnbuckel. Yes there is some slack in the safty cable, but no more than a inch. I just like the idea that the 4 cables stay very tight all the time while raising and lowering, and you dont have to adjust the turnbuckles.


As far as the concrete goes, I have more than enough to hold the tower, My trade was a project supt. on heavy construction, I have formed and poured millions of yards. Anyway, the winch anchor is poured in a 8 foot deep by 4 foot dia. tank that has a wall thickness of 3/4 inch. The other 3 anchors are reinforced piers with a 6X6 foot spread footing down 5 foot. I can see why your concerned, due to only seeing the top of the piers.


Yes, I understand your concern also about the winch. Thats why I was so worried, and built it to go slow. the gear reducer I added is a worm gear reducer.I was also concerned about the 5/16 cable I had to use, being that the drum was not big enough to take that many feet of 3/8 cable. I do have 3/8 cable from the gin pole tho.


Yes, you are correct in saying the top guys are the ones that really count. the intermedite ones will support the flexing of the tower, that is why I didnt think the long sleeves are neccessary.


I have raised and lowered the tower empty, but am about to lower it with the turbine on it. Something I didnt show, was a counter weight of 400 lbs that is attached to the top of the gin pole, and can be raised and lowered by a hand winch at the bottom of the gin pole. When the tower gets down to about 60 degrees, the winch starts going up and can be adjusted by the hand winch as the tower continues down. The counter weight stays back near the winch.


Now if you remember, I have a 2 RPM 760 to 1 ratio motor that locks the tower to the turbine to hold it in the wind or out of it. I am very happy with that. If I want to shut it down in a high wind, I can turn the turbine out of the wind, and than short it out.


I saw 40 amps in a 10 mile wind at 75 RPM at 48 volts, the short time I let it go.ITs the 12 foot unguyed area at the top that worrys me, that is why Im bringing it down to beef that up, and also to take the tail off. I dont need a flat vertical tail. Im going to put a fiberglass resin tank out of a softerner on a longer 1&1/8" dia solid rnd stock. The shaft runs all the way thu the tank, and I will beable to balance the tail to the turbine by placing sand in the resin tank untell the weight is even.


The other thing I worry about, is the size of the spindle with all that weight, I wish I would have found a spindle out of a big truck or something like it.


I also believe that the weight of the props is a big reason why you can get high amps in low winds, so I can live with stall. And of course they need to be perfectly balanced

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 11:57:23 AM by harrie »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2007, 12:30:40 PM »
Hi - yes, you might be right here....

but -

"I still disagree on the springs, Remember, they are very heavy duty. They keep the 5/16 cable so tight you can play a tune on them."


Hopefully the springs are heavy duty enough - but it's important that you dont have them too tight.  I dont think you want to be able to 'play a tune' on them - if they're too tight you're actually pulling down on the tower, not what you want to do.  You can crush a tower if the guys are too tight.


Normally a tilt up tower should be somewhat tight when raised, and a bit slack when it's lowered.  You may be on solid ground though - time will tell.  I'd do things differently but that's just me!  Overall - its a very impressive effort and I hope it works out well for you.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:30:40 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2007, 12:31:04 PM »
Ya Dan, In regard to the cable clamps, I learned about 40 years ago to do it the way I did, by alternating directions. I used 3 clamps on what really counted,but as you said, dont saddle a dead horse. I beleive I remember that that did change, and it makes sence to me so I will change them. Thanks for pointing that out.


Also, I made a typo error in the post below, I said the winch starts going up, and should say the counter weight starts going up. I think this method takes alot of the strain off the winch.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:31:04 PM by harrie »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
You have springs without adding any.
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2007, 12:32:26 PM »
Springs are unnecessary because the curvature of the guy wires acts as an excellent spring.


The guy wires have weight and their run is not purely vertical.  As a result they MUST bend, to obtain upward forces at the ends to oppose the downward force of gravity on the wire.


The less the bend, the more tension is required to support the weight.  (It would require infinite tension to hold them dead-straight.)  As a result, they act as springs:  Pull them out longer and they pull back harder:  Just what you want.  (They're also non-linear, with a "spring constant" that rises steeply as they approach dead-straight.  This is ALSO what you want.)


= = = =


Putting safety wires down the middle of the springs won't help:  If the mill blows away enough to stretch out the spring (or if the spring breaks) they'll pull tight SUDDENLY, with the mass of the tower already moving.  They'll need to be stronger than the guys themselves (compensating for weakening from the way they're attached) to keep from snapping.  And the "snap-tight" also means the guys will have to be MUCH stronger to avoid stretching and breaking when the tension curve changes and their upward momentum isn't "with the revised program".


In addition to the various issues with springs that were already discussed above (breakage, weakening, etc.) there is a major safety issue:  Imagine a kid with his hand against the collapsed spring when a gust blows the mill away momentarily.  The spring coils will open up, then grab and crush his fingers when the tower pulls back.  You won't be able to release him short of putting tons of extra tension on the opposing guys.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:32:26 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2007, 12:35:10 PM »
Yep, thats what so fun about this forum, we can disagree. And yes, time will tell. If it crashes You may not hear from me for awhile, but eventully I will confess. ha.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:35:10 PM by harrie »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: Tower complete for 26, 24, and now 22 foot
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2007, 12:42:14 PM »
I said the winch itself is rated at 2 ton, that is 4000 lbs, and with the other gear reducing I added, it should do the trick. The 1/4 inch motor runs very smooth and steady even tho im running 150 foot of #12/2 W/G wire to feed it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:42:14 PM by harrie »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: You have springs without adding any.
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2007, 02:25:24 PM »
Hi, Well, Im too old to have kids around too often, but the springs do not open and close they cant, the safty cable wont alow them to do it. The guys they are attached to are only the bottom, and the intermediate. the top heavy guys are attached to there own foundation. I have a total of 16 guy cables, and 8 different anchor points. I probley should have added this picture to my post instead of makeing everyone asume that the tower is only constructed from a 4 inch pipe standing alone

Anyway, if I have trouble with the springs, I will be sure and let everyone know! Thanks all for the input.


Oh, by the way Dan asked about the twist lock cord cap that showed in one of the pictures, it is a 30 Amp 480 volt. I wouldnt argue with anyone when it comes to electronics, so is this Ok for 48 volt and hopefully no more than 50 amps??

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 02:25:24 PM by harrie »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: You have springs without adding any.
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2007, 03:30:19 PM »
Neat picture...

I wont say about your plug...  we burned out the same one on a 12V machine which sometimes hit 120 amps ;-).  I expect what your doing is not 'code' but good chance it'll work fine.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 03:30:19 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

the beast

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: plug choice
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2007, 06:25:52 AM »
I was always taught that it's amps that will burn out a plug.  Even though your plug is rated for much higher power than you are putting through it, it will not carry 50 amps safely for any period of time if it's only rated for 30.


If I were you I would change it for a higher amperage plug.  Compared with the cost of the rest of the system a few plugs are insignificant so not worth skimping on.  You don't want a turbine of that size running unloaded in high winds if the plug burns out.  Similarly you wouldn't want the plug to somehow burn out and short either, as a dead short with the size of machine you have would probably tear it apart.


Just my 2 cents...

« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 06:25:52 AM by the beast »

harrie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 365
Re: plug choice
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2007, 07:16:24 PM »
Thanks beast, Yes, you are right. I will have to see what I can find, the 30 amp twist locks cost me 30 dollars for the female, and 25 for the male, at a local Electric Supply. They told me it would handle anything a windmill could put out, so I went with it. I guess I dont know, if 30amps is 30amps, no matter what the voltage is, anyway, Im still learning, so thanks for the help!!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 07:16:24 PM by harrie »

DanB

  • Global Moderator
  • SuperHero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2151
  • Country: us
    • otherpower.com
Re: plug choice
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2007, 08:26:01 AM »
Yes, wouldn't hurt to go larger.

If you really dont expect much more than 30 amps sustained output then youll likely be OK with occasional 'peaks' well above that, but larger would be better.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2007, 08:26:01 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

DanG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1122
  • Country: us
  • 35 miles east of Lake Okeechobee
Re: plug choice
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2007, 08:29:04 AM »
If you can keep oxygen and moisture from aging electrical mating surfaces on your 30A set it would go along way towards keeping heat down, spark plug wire dielectric silicone generously applied should keep the brass/copper bright for many years...
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 08:29:04 AM by DanG »