Author Topic: Lamimated Blade questions  (Read 2771 times)

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phil b

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Lamimated Blade questions
« on: November 16, 2004, 07:59:43 PM »
I was given ash wood strips from a cabinet shop. They measure 1" X 1/4" and some are 1" X 1/8". Very smooth and the dimensions are very close. I'm thinking they will make a set of strong blades for Hugh's 8',dual rotor machine. I clamped one end 6" into a vise, to simulate the hub end and bent the other to simulate the twist in the plans. No problem. I have no knowledge of laminated blade construction. I've made 3 sets of blades to date. They are getting easier and are getting faster to build.


  1. Does ash have better strength than pine or 'white wood'?
  2. What glue should I use?
  3. Can I put glue between layers of wood and bend one end to create the blade twist without compromising strength?
  4. Hugh's plans use 2"X6"'s. Will 1" of laminated ash be as good or better than the 2X6?
  5. Would photos of the strips help ????


Comments are appreciated!

Phil

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 07:59:43 PM by (unknown) »
Phil

sh123469

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 08:41:20 PM »
We were told in our high school woodshop classes that laminates are stronger than the same size piece of clear wood.  I have never had the occasion to try or test this to see how true it is.  


I would be very concerned about the adhesive used and whether or not it would stand up to the climatic exposure.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 08:41:20 PM by sh123469 »

whatsnext

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 10:13:43 PM »
Laminates are MUCH stronger. They are also much heavier. There are waterproof versions of Elmers glue that should handle the weather just fine. Here goes:


  1. Yes, they make baseball bats of ash.
  2. Waterproof woodworker's glue.
  3. Yes
  4. I have no idea because I'm not familier with the dimentions of Hugh's blades. But if they are not thick enough you could add laminations. Laminates give you the opertunity to play god with grain structure.
  5. No


Laminating the blade would be the way to go as far as I'm concerned due to the increased strength and stiffness. The mill Dan just sold had laminated cedar blades. They are, however, a bunch more work due to the glueing. The random fluctuation in wood density will likely make for a more balanced blade set.

JMO, John.......
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 10:13:43 PM by whatsnext »

bob g

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 10:22:01 PM »
seems to me i have seen laminated airplane prop's,


don't know what they used for glue, but it stands to reason that if it works for airplane props it should work for wind gen blades.


perhaps laminated with fiberglass resin and woven mat single layer should make for and incredibly strong blade.


then a cover of the same to seal out all possibility of moisture getting in.


careful stacking of the laminates would sure allow getting the twist, profiles, camber etc. perhaps easier than carving out of a solid blank.


slso filler material could be used such as fiberglass reinforced bondo to fill as needed  before the cover was put on would allow more intricate design.


and the quality of the wood could be more carefully controlled, less knots, shakes, etc.


i like it


bob g

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 10:22:01 PM by bob g »
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JYL

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 10:42:31 PM »
Laminated wood are generally more resistant than a plain pieces of wood. Properly done, it solves most warping problems and increases the rigidity in at least one direction.

For example, all good quality wooden hockey stick are made of thin laminate.


Several glue type can be use for that. I use some Gorilla RED glue (actually the Lepage Brand in Canada) in the past and it worked fine (for structural laminate but never build blade with it). The bound is solid and resist humidity (and water) very well.


Here I suggest you follow this link for more information on glue type:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Exterior_glues.html


You can pre-shape the wood before laminating it. However, don't forget that most glue need clamping for several minutes if not hours. Therefore, the shape must be stable when the pressure (often 50 to 60 pounds) is applied with the clamp.


Pretty smooth (like circular saw cut) is not always enough with thin laminate, especially with PVA glue type. For thin wood (1/4 inch thick), you can always try to eliminate all void by clamping the work every few inches, doing only a few layers at the time. However, for 1/2 to 1" thick ash... Well, this will not work very well. In this case, try to select glue that has some "GAP" filling ability. But the GAP filling ability of the glue must be use sparingly if at all.


Finally, if your wood clamps are not strong enough to produce the 6" wide laminate in a single operation (too much GAP to prevent, the wood is not strait, etc...)... You can do it in several operations. However, if you don't have a planner to straiten the edge of the "glued pieces", you need to take a lot of extra precaution in clamping. You need to prevent the formation of a WAVE pattern, therefore you need to clamp you work against a solid strait edge.


Warning: I never build blade -- but I did many structural laminate

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 10:42:31 PM by JYL »

JF

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2004, 01:49:54 AM »
Dear Phil B and other friends


Please consult my files to be found under "JF" Diary entries:


"Simple blades and Rotors - Parts 1-4"


and also the file "Simple Blades and Rotors - Part 4b" - to be found under the "Comments" entries.


You will find that the two-bladed  rotor designed by Uwe Hallenga is also very suitable for this construction.


Also consult a previous file concerning some laminated blade experiments done together with other friends and colleagues:


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/119/bladecar.pdf


Finally - kindly likewise consult several of the entries and remarks made by my friend and colleague Hannu Virtanen [these will be found under "Hannu" or "Virtanen"] for further information concerning the interesting simple and effective Finnish "layered-plank strip" technology.


With best wishes and greetings - JF

« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 01:49:54 AM by JF »

Vtbsr

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2004, 05:31:22 AM »
Phil, I would use " West epoxy". Coat both surfaces of the laminations with the glue. The laminations should be planed on all 4 sides.  It seems like you will need a double layer to get the 2" thickness. First glue up aprox 1x6 blanks , then run through planer to even up. Stack 2 layers and glue. Try to get as many laminations in your pipe clamps as you can fit, Skip the glue where you want the 1x6 pieces to come apart. With the slow hardner you will have over 1 hr open time. You will have a lot of labor with this idea. Ash is over twice the strength of pine. If you want to try the twist idea you might be able to use string to tightly wrap the laminations for clamping. The string will get sanded off when you cut the profile.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 05:31:22 AM by Vtbsr »

picmacmillan

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2004, 08:42:19 AM »
my two cents here would suggest making sure the grain of the wood is parallel with the length of the blade.....this is very important to it's strength..ash is very hard wood when dry..  like stated above baseball bats and axe handles are made from ash...skateboards are laminates of maple usually because it is readily available and one more bit of trivia....toothpicks are made from birch....have a good one....pickster
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 08:42:19 AM by picmacmillan »

phil b

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Re: Lamimated Blade questions
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2004, 07:53:02 PM »
Thanks for your comments. They are appreciated!

Does anyone know what glue is used for aircraft props?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 07:53:02 PM by phil b »
Phil