Author Topic: Pedal axial flux?  (Read 9141 times)

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gotwind2

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Pedal axial flux?
« on: October 30, 2008, 10:21:20 PM »
Hello all.


I'm back to thinking about pedal generators again, I know some love them, some are indifferent.


They do have a certain appeal to me, what with gyms charging a fortune and offering nothing in return from the physical energy exerted..


As far as efficiency is concerned, I assume a directly pedalled dual rotor axial flux machine would be the most efficient, (no friction with belts or chains) as with other (great) offerings here on fieldlines.


From some research, a reasonably fit human can pedal at 80-100 rpm, similar to some VAWT speeds.


So, I am thinking if a pair of pedal cranks could be attached to either side of the magnet rotors this would be possible and very efficient hopefully?


Ben.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 10:21:20 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 05:08:44 PM »
Important is blowing some cooling air past the legs.  I understand that greatly increases your output and extends your run time.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 05:08:44 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

CmeBREW

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 07:06:41 PM »
Hi Ben,

       I am one of those who likes the idea for excercise and like you find it a fun challenge to try and get the most power (Watthours) out of a 'casual' effort.

I am just experimenting with it like you- so I am no expert. I am still working on my own flywheel design ped generator. (about 500rpm max) It is not done yet. The giant Servo motor weighs 100lbs alone.  


I think some of us have thought about what you are proposing but it seems to me that doing it that direct slow rpm way would probably cost quite a bit of $$$ for the big magnets, steel, and copper to make it efficient going that slow.


It seems to me, the physical rotation cycle could be somewhat harder on the legs, knees, and ankles  with a direct slow 80 rpm generator like that without a heavy flywheel.

Not absolutely sure though. Something to think about maybe.


That is one big advantage with high speed ped gens. It acts like a nice flywheel.

Your ped gen projects are always very interesting.  

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 07:06:41 PM by CmeBREW »

Jerry

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 07:47:49 PM »



This is my entry. Its a 6 pole motor conversion. Iwas able to light a 100 watt light bulb but for a very short burst and then much rest.


I left the motor wirering stock. Also power up a small B&W tv.


                        JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 07:47:49 PM by Jerry »

hiker

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 08:34:23 PM »
a real simple pedgen can be made  from an old exersize bike..

you can keep the flywheel or change it with a  bike rim--just

use a flat belt from rim to gen..

lots of old exersize bikes at thrift shops-cheap..

check out my pedgen  files--

heres a mov. clip--motor conversion 300+volts..straight ac out-hooked direct to a tv..

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1236/stereo_test_motormill.MOV

no real big loss in friction ...puts out close to 300watts when coils are wired in parelle[3 -110v- 100watt lightbulbs]
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 08:34:23 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

hiker

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2008, 08:36:23 PM »
looks like you beat me to the punch JERRY...:}
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 08:36:23 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

Flux

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2008, 02:50:30 AM »
This is not my field at all but I agree that if you are prepared to spend the money you could build a very efficient direct drive axial alternator.


I personally wouldn't do it that way, the loss from a chain speed increasing transmission will be small and as long as you are careful about your alternator bearing choice I would go for a smaller alternator driven at perhaps 5 times pedal speed. You would then be in a better position to use your magnets and copper far more effectively and you could afford to go in at very high efficiency.


If I had to pedal the damned thing then I would want every watt possible out of it( I couldn't imagine pedalling against a brake just to make my legs ache).


Flux

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 02:50:30 AM by Flux »

Jon Miller

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2008, 03:29:42 AM »
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 03:29:42 AM by Jon Miller »


tecker

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2008, 06:50:15 AM »
The width of the rotor and stator  itself will mess up the vector down to the pedels if the pedels are mounted in the genset.It's a good idea though to remove the the mech from the maintainence problems but those problems are  not that bad .
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 06:50:15 AM by tecker »

CmeBREW

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2008, 10:12:19 PM »
On the other hand though, if the alternator were big and heavy enough (like 40-50lbs spinning), it might just be a decent enough acting flywheel at that low rpm.  It's difficult to say.

Another nice thing would be that it would be almost silent running. Great for watching TV without headphones. This is important to me.


I've been doing some experimenting around with my big flywheel idea and it sure does seem to help a lot in getting more power with a 'semi-casual' physical effort.


I am not a work-out freak or something---but I would like a nice 'semi-casual' 30 minute workout every few days primarily for excercise AND to get some usuable power on a gloomy, no wind day.  

That is my objective. My goal (challenge;hope;dream;etc) is to average 100watts during this 30 minute workout. (total= 50 watthours)


I want to start out with 120watts for 10min  ; then reduce down to 100watts for 10 minutes ; then reduce down to 90 watts for the last 'easy' 10 minutes. (total=30min workout)


Anyway, that is my goal, I don't know if I can acheive it yet though, nor if its similar to your idea of 'a workout' or what.


I am still working on my design but maybe you might get an idea from it.

Obviously I have a very efficient giant AC servo-motor (only 1/4th ohm coils)as the generator. (it failed with the VAWT sadly--so now it will find life as a big ped-gen)


Here is a couple pictures of my test with the big 30" dia. particle board flywheel.(one equals 16 lbs. // I intend to attach a second one to make a 32 lb flywheel plus the approximate 40 lbs of rotor spinning inside the motor. (total about 72 lbs of 'flywheel' spinning)










Keep in mind, this is testing.

For now, I have to hold the 10-speed (in it's 10th fastest gear) bicicle to the big 30" flywheel with one hand while pedaling with the other hand.


So pedaling with only one hand I am getting a fairly easy 5 amps (14volts at the 12Vattery) which is about 70 watts going into the battery.


But it is difficult to hold it while pedaling though. It keeps slipping off the edge of the big flywheel since I don't have the other second piece of 30"dia. particle board attached yet. Sometimes it goes to 6amps.


I am very certain that I can achieve my 'semi-casual' pedaling at 7 or possibly even 8 amps.  So I think I can do it.  Of course, pedaling hard for a short time I expect it will go way higher.


Anyway, it is a fun and interesting challenge to try and get the most efficient Watthours you can get in the least time!


-Good luck with your testing and design.  Look forward to whatever you come up with.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 10:12:19 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2008, 05:48:34 PM »
Ben, (and everyone else),


I was inaccurate about the 7 or 8 amps I was hoping (dreaming of) for above.


I finished my big 100lb Servomotor ped gen just a few hours ago and tried it out and BOY was I wrong!!

Keep in mind I am MEGA OUT of shape which is the main reason for doing this.

I found out I CAN get over 200 Watts (13Amps//15V at the 12v batt) for a brief peak time with the giant servomotor and Flywheel and a 12-speed bicicle.  


BUT, I can't keep that up for long! Also, even though 7 amps (100watts) doesn't seem that hard at first, after a couple of minutes it starts to change my mind quick!


I am VERY glad I made it since this proves I NEED excercise badly.  But right now I can only maintain 4 amps (50watts) for 10 minutes, then 3amps (40Watts) for the remaining 20 minutes. (feels like free-spinning) (Total is About 21 Watthour)


Since I haven't 'Worked out' in about 20 years or so, I fell to the ground to rest after this and my heart hasn't stopped beating hard yet. So it was a good workout.


After I get more and more in shape, I hope to eventually work up to a 35 Watthour 30min workout.

But it won't be easy thats for sure!


This Big flywheel ped gen is TWICE as much power though than a small treadmill ped gen I had made a year ago. I could only get about 20 watts from a 'semi-casual' effort from it.  So I do get twice the efficiency and power (WH) with this new big pedal generator now. So I am happy about that.


I still need to add the other particle board circle to the flywheel and then I will see if it increases the 'Mechanical efficiency' even better.


I will post about it soon in my diary. Maybe you might get an idea.


Good luck with yours Ben. It will certainly be good for your health!

« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:48:34 PM by CmeBREW »

CmeBREW

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2008, 12:34:49 PM »
I want to thank Ben for posting this--because it made me get off my lazy but and finally finish my ped gen.  Now I am getting much more power (WH) because I had had tiny ga. (22ga.) wire wrapped around 6 diodes and it was causing a lot of extra resistance which was costing me a lot of power. I now added more wrapping wire.


So my guess initially was actually close. Now I am getting 40watthour in my 30min workout. (Twice as much as before!)

I bet I can get 300watts briefly now going into the 12v battery. (afraid to blow up my ammeter)

It really teaches me about the VITAL importance of line resistance.


I am now averaging 80Watts and it is really not that hard. I'm not even breathing heavy after now.  That first time I had wore myself out at the beginning doing over 100watts for a few minutes.


Now, my father and brother are working out on it also. (more free power for TV later!)


I forgot to mention that the gear ratio of my ped gen is only 3:1     -Thanks.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 12:34:49 PM by CmeBREW »

capthook

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 04:47:34 PM »
Great pics/diary.


Why hasn't this idea taken off commercially?

Isn't a ped-gen type idea a great idea for 3rd world villages?


Have you seen this link?

David Butcher's pedal power device - the first I ever came across.

His first build was in 1976.


http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 04:47:34 PM by capthook »

spinningmagnets

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Bicycle-powered devices
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 07:55:27 PM »
"...Isn't a ped-gen type idea a great idea for 3rd world villages?.."


Good question Capt Hook! I Googled "bicycle powered"...


http://img.engadget.com/common/images/2363704371535783.JPG?0.199740827045361

bicycle-powered ped-gen in India for cell-phone charging


http://www.technologyforthepoor.com/PedalPowerReport/PedalPowerReport.htm

bicycle-powered multi-tool in India. Circular saw, wood-cutting lathe, peanut shelling, rice threshing, corn-shelling, water pumping...


http://ecoworldly.com/files/2008/06/bike-water-pumppreview.jpg

bicycle-powered water well sucker-pump in Nicaragua


http://www.bikeblender.com/images/african%20bike%20blender.jpg

bicycle-powered smoothie blender in Africa


http://www.asiaisgreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/bicycle-powered-water-filtraton.JPG

bicycle-powered water filter


http://greenbuildingelements.com/files/images/laundrypanaroma.jpg

bicycle-powered washing machine


http://forums.dfoggknives.com/uploads/post-1598-1131246307.jpg

bicycle-powered grinder/knife sharpener


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/483444599_1d0cdc43b3.jpg

bicycle-powered U-Haul in China


"The only exercise I ever get is walking behind the caskets of my friends who exercised" -Peter O'Toole


"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise, I lay down until it passes" -Mark Twain

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 07:55:27 PM by spinningmagnets »

CmeBREW

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Re: Pedal axial flux?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 08:45:17 PM »
I hate to comment so many times, but I believe I got some more useful info that Ben (and others) might find useful.


Today I switched my big ped gen above to 24v instead of just 12v , and now I can actually AVERAGE 100Watts!!  (Yes , 50Watthour in a 30 minute workout--yippy!)


I have to pedal faster, but even starting out at 112 watts for 10 minutes is not THAT difficult. (then I go down to 100watt for 10min and then 90watts for the last 10min)

I can appreciate now that the higher the Battery system voltage (24v/48v) the more efficient power (WH) you can achieve for the same effort. (like Hikers higher voltage set-up)


It really makes me wonder what maximum can be accomplished for battery charging??

Today, about every few hours, I would jump on the ped gen and do a ONE MINUTE 200 watt average super 'mini-workout'. (200watts for 60seconds)

I can't pedal any faster than this with this gearing set-up.


Just this ONE MINUTE workout should give me 40 minutes (5Watt CFL) of lighting! Cool.

Most importantly though, I am getting in better shape.


-Just some ideas and experiences that might help in your design.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 08:45:17 PM by CmeBREW »