Author Topic: 130 W conversion finished  (Read 6311 times)

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dinges

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130 W conversion finished
« on: February 14, 2007, 05:56:05 PM »
A few words about the latest conversion project.


The victim:





The specifications:


type DM 100-80

manufacturer Groschopp & Co, 4060 Viersen 1, Germany.



  • 130W motor
  • 3 phase, 380V star, 220V delta
  • n=1400 RPM (4 pole)
  • current: 0.57A (star), 1A (delta)
  • cos phi = 0.55


Each phase has a resistance of ~ 40 ohm.


The bearings are 6002-2RSH on the front (prop side), a 6000-2Z at the back. This last bearing takes the full thrust load.


The surgery:


Below is a partial AutoCAD drawing of the new rotor.





The conversion consists of 48 magnets, N45 12.0 mm x 6.0 mm (close, but not quite, to 1/2" x 1/4"). There's 2.0 cubic inch of magnetic material in there; according to Zubbly's rule, this should yield an output of about 2 * 150 = 300W. Since my magnet grades are slightly higher than normal (N45 vs. N38/40) I expect slightly more output.


The magnets are arranged in 4 poles. Each pole has 2 rows of 6 magnets each.


The original shaft was used after the original rotor was removed. Then, a steel core was installed and glued in place with Loctite 638. The steel core was turned to the correct diameter, after which an aluminium sleeve was fitted and Loctited in place. The outside of the aluminium sleeve was dimensioned to correct dimensions after the Loctite had set.








The next step consisted of machining the pockets for the magnets. This was done by  printing the layout of the magnet (see CAD drawing) and glueing this temporary on the rotor. Then, the correct position was marked with a centerpunch.








The holes were pre-drilled with 3 mm, then drilled to 8mm and finally drilled to 12.5 mm. The final step consisted of milling (on the drill press) with a 1/2" end mill, to achieve the flat bottom for the magnets to sit on.





The magnets were glued in place using epoxy. I didn't use Loctite for this, since the manufacturer has been unclear whether Loctite 638 has good adherence to nickel coated magnets.


After 3 days of curing the rotor was manually inserted into the stator. This was a relatively straightforward procedure, and despite the presence of 48 strong magnets,

the insertion was fully controlled.


Unlike the previous 3 hp conversion, no other machines were used than a lathe and a drillpress.


No balancing has been done, neither static nor dynamic.


No rewinding of the stator has been done.


The results:


The first test results, by no means complete, indicate that it requires about 7.5 RPM/volt (per phase, i.e. neither star nor delta). These are open volts. Further tests have to be performed by letting it actually charge a battery at various RPMs.


At 300 RPM, Vopen = 40Vac

At 600 RPM, Vopen = 85Vac.


These are volts per phase (neither star nor delta), unloaded.


There is no cogging to speak of. One can feel a little cogging, but it doesn't impair performance. I ascribe this cogging due to the less-than-perfect machining of the pockets and thus the position of the magnets being sometimes slightly off. The actual procedure for the decogging (see my diary of the 3hp conversion) has proven that the theoretical concept is valid. Had I machined it on a CNC mill, I have no doubt it would be 100% cogless.


We all know that the magnetic pole width should be about the size of the inside of the coils. I was aware of this rule, and knew that the price of wider magnetic poles would be cancellation of voltage and thus less than optimal use of the magnets. This seemed like a small price to pay, if it meant it would generate more power and at lower RPMs. So, I crammed all the magnets in there I could (48 pcs), which meant that the magnetic poles are wider than the inside of the coils.


The cancellation can be felt very clearly when the generator is loaded and one rotates the shaft; at the points of cancellation, the generator doesn't generate as much and this can be felt by a sudden drop of load, i.e. the shaft becomes much easier to turn. This happens at the 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions. I fear this  will make the genny noisy and make it vibrate. It appears that cancellation has much greater impact than 'just' a less-optimal use of magnets. It's something that should be avoided as much as possible.


The cancellation feels a bit like cogging, but only at 4 positions. Plus, unlike cogging, the 'cogging cancellation' can only be felt in 4 positions and -only- when the generator is being loaded.


Here's a picture of the unloaded shape of the waveform of one phase. As can be seen, there's quite a bit of distortion from a perfect sinewave.





The lessons:


Do as Zubbly says; make your magnetic pole about the size of the inside of the coils. Cancellation doesn't just cause less-optimal use of magnets but also vibration and noise.


The next phases:


The hub is more or less finished. Next step is the carving of a prop. I am considering something of about 1.2m diameter. Probably with a low TSR, since this genny generates at relatively low RPMs. However, no real design work on the prop has yet been done. I'm open to suggestions w.r.t. TSR. As far as system voltage goes, this genny would probably make a nice one for a 48V system, but a lousy one for 12V, without a rewind. I don't intend to rewind.


Conclusion: a few important lessons were learned building this relatively small genny. The previous 3hp conversion was built to theoretical perfection, and machined as near to perfection as I could get. With this 130W genny, I tried to use as much magnet as possible and to cut corners in the machining. The results are cancellation and (slight) cogging.


Important lessons and I'm glad I've learned them on this small (but still very

useable) generator, as opposed to the 10+hp conversion I feel like tackling now...


(more pictures can be found in my IRC gallery, page 9 and further, and this sub-gallery: http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49 )


Regards,


Peter.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 05:56:05 PM by (unknown) »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

ghurd

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 12:30:07 PM »
Looks great!


I am wondering about the cogging / cancellation / wave form.

Could it be partly because of the magnet spacing?  The 2 rows of each pole have a gap equal to the spacing between poles, meaning half way through there is less magnet over the coils.  Something like a couple missing magnets near the middle. I can't explain my idea better than that.


Might be a good device for testing Jerry Rigged, AKA Jerry Phased?

It usually works better for me with high resistance and high voltage.

Plus it could use the high VAC to 3 transformers near the battery.


What is the OD of the rotor?

G-

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 12:30:07 PM by ghurd »
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willib

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 01:41:55 PM »
Peter i've seen that waveform before

it happens when the poles are  too far apart or too close together

because the poles and coils dont match up.

i realize it is harder to test a conversion , than a axial machine?

is there anything that you would do differently?

Would it be hard to install some mags on a temporary basis on a rotor shaft just for testing?


nice work anyway , i hope you had fun

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 01:41:55 PM by willib »
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zubbly

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 02:26:17 PM »
hey Dinges!


super lovely work.


as you see the dip in the top of the wave form, i am sure this is do to the space between the 2 rows of mags per pole. the trick is to keep those rows that form a pole as close together as possible to best mimic a single mag.


it is often hard to get the best set up that one wants.  a comprimise is all we can do.


main point!  it works!!!!!!!!!!     and i congratulate you on a fine job.


you may be able to make the unit more compatible for a 24 or 12 volt system if you want to tackle re-connecting the existing winding for more circuits.


1.2 meter prop sounds good.  tsr of 7 has seemed to work well with my own conversions.


again, damn nice job!


zubbly

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 02:26:17 PM by zubbly »

asheets

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 04:42:56 PM »
You say: "Here's a picture of the unloaded shape of the waveform of one phase. As can be seen, there's quite a bit of distortion from a perfect sinewave."


But it looks to me like the addition of 2 perfect sine waves -- the primary one and an inverse sine wave resulting from "cancellation".  Does the waveform look the same on all three phases?


I wonder if there would be any electronic way of filtering out the unwanted wave by frequency, or shifting it's face to complement the main wave...

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 04:42:56 PM by asheets »

Darren73

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 05:06:32 PM »
Hi Alan,

The waveform has a classic 3rd harmonic in it, it could be electronically filtered at the expense of efficiency.


To be honest as long as it is rectified "jerry rigged" and the voltage of the dip is greater than the battery voltage it shouldn't matter.


Regards

Darren

« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 05:06:32 PM by Darren73 »

elvin1949

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 11:32:52 PM »
Peter

 It is good  IE it work's.

Nice workmanship. Get a prop on it and turn on the light's.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 11:32:52 PM by elvin1949 »

dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2007, 04:55:19 AM »
Hi Ghurd,


The rotor Outer Diameter is 53 mm; here's a CAD sketch of a preliminary version (not the final version) of the rotor; most dimensions are the same, apart from the fact that in the right view, the magnets are now distributed 'evenly' over the circumference, as opposed to at 40 and 45 deg. I.e., all magnets are at 45 deg.)


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49/130W_ombouw?full=1


As far as being able to put the magnets closer together, it's virtually impossible with this size of magnets. IIRC, there's only 1-2mm spacing at the botting of the magnets. I didn't dare reduce this spacing more, not with my less-than perfect machining set-up.


By using flatter magnets (12x4mm instead of 12x6mm) your method might have worked. But alas, that size of magnets is not available to me... Compromises...


I'll give 'open delta' a try: rectifying the phases separately, and connecting the +/- outputs together in parallel. Without the use of capacitors, as is normal in Jerry-rigged, as I understand it. I think that method would make this genny a decent 48V and 24V generator.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 04:55:19 AM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 04:57:52 AM »
The poles are distributed evenly across the rotor, i.e. at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock positions. But, the width of the poles is too much for the coil width. At least, that's my current take on it.


As far as temporary testing goes; due to my limited machining capability, I try to do most work 'in my head' or on paper. I.e. figure it out theoretically first before letting the chips fly.


It definitely was fun. And I have little doubt it makes a nice generator. Just that it could have been even better ;)

« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 04:57:52 AM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2007, 05:05:24 AM »
Thanks for the compliments Z.


I know the trick of multiple small magnets is to mimic one single magnetic pole. However, due to the size of my magnets (12x6mm deep) I couldn't mount them any closer within a pole without their bottom touching (see also my reply to Ghurd). A solution would have been to use flatter magnets (esp. considering the fact that this genny has a lot of magnetic volume; 300-350W of 'magnets', for a 130W motor). But alas, flatter magnets (like 12x4 mm) weren't available to me.


Incidentally, you had warned me before about my rotor (that it looked a bit like a 6 pole one, if you remember that discussion on IRC).


Compromises indeed. And, after having thought about various configurations for almost 6 months, I thought it would be finally time to get some work done and stop the procrastinating ;)


As far as matching a prop (TSR) to the genny; I plan to do some tests in the lathe, at various system voltages and RPMs, to try to figure the power curve of the generator out. With that information, it should be easier to match the genny to the prop (proper diameter and TSR).


BTW, thanks for all the help and assistance you (and others) continue to give on this board and IRC.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 05:05:24 AM by dinges »
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dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2007, 05:10:57 AM »
Hi Alan,


I have only measured one (random) phase, but I have little doubt that the other phases look the same, as the 'bump' can be clearly felt. I'll try measuring the other phases later, but expect little difference.


Like Darren says, the waveshape looks like a fundamental sine with a superimposed 3rd harmonic on it.


There may be electronic solutions (rectifying to DC and then converting to a perfect sine again), but for battery charging this makes little sense. Besides, the power that is lost in the 'bumps' of cancellation can not be regained anyway. The only real solution would be to build a better rotor. And I don't intend to do that. It'll work good enough. But the next conversion (10hp or so, when I find the right motor) -will- have to be perfect ;)

« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 05:10:57 AM by dinges »
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WXYZCIENCE

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2007, 10:49:28 AM »
Dr. Peter, very successful operation. The patient can now become productive. Instead of a drain on our future generation.
Joseph
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 10:49:28 AM by WXYZCIENCE »

SparWeb

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2007, 12:26:12 PM »
Congratulations, Peter, on some nice work.  Thanks, too, for the good discussion on "cancellation" - something I might have tackled with the rotor I built for my 3HP conversion.  Now I don't have to.  I don't have the benefit of an oscilloscope, either, so your photo of the output waveform says it all.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 12:26:12 PM by SparWeb »
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dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2007, 05:06:50 AM »
Thanks for the replies all.


Steven, the reason I posted results as soon as possible, as opposed to waiting till I got definitive measured results (which may take a few weeks) was to get the cancellation issue in the open again. So that others may learn from it too.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 05:06:50 AM by dinges »
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ghurd

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2007, 02:52:50 PM »
I meant a constant area of magnet inside each coil (linked), after the maximum area of magnet is reached.

I wish I could draw it.


Maybe I should say...

"The amount of magnet over each tooth should increase evenly until the maximum is reached, and then it should decrease at the same rate"?


I think a major part of the wave form issues are because, at close to each peak, the amount of magnet surface area is increasing, then decreasing, and then increasing.


The dip in the wave form is because of the active magnet area is temporarily decreasing part way through the wave form.

Because the 2 rows are too far apart to be a single solitary (free from major harmonics) pole.


Much like a 12 pole alternator using 24 evenly spaced magnets in a N-N-S-S-N-N-S-S pattern.

The pattern could be better utilized with NN--SS--NN--SS. (higher delta-T and no cancellation?)


Maybe I am saying look at the magnet area from the stator's view, instead of from a single magnet at the axle's perspective?

Perspective from the axle leave out all the other magnets.


G-

« Last Edit: February 17, 2007, 02:52:50 PM by ghurd »
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dinges

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Re: 130 W conversion finished
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 07:04:53 PM »
Finally had the chance to measure generator output, charging a battery bank of 12V, 24V and 48V.


The generator is (and will be) wired in open-delta, i.e., each of the three phases is rectified separately. The 3 DC outputs are parallelled. This is the only way to get as high a cut-in RPM as possible without doing a rewind. Notice that in case of a 12V system, cut-in is still at only 80 RPM. Should be about 250-300 RPM.


The prop diameter will be about 4 ft (1.3m most likely). In case of a 12V system the TSR should be about 3. Not sure what the downsides of such a low TSR are.


Should I go for a 48V generator, then a TSR of 6 or 7 would be excellent. This generator seems just about perfect for a 48V system.


(24V is not an option; either 12V or 48V)


Below are the output table and a graph. More detailed pictures can be found here:


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/dinges?page=15








Regards,

« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 07:04:53 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)